DWA Poll and Debate

Most food allergies are due to a particular protein that sets off some peoples' immune systems. Bee venom contains histamine, which sets of a lot of peoples' immune systems, some with disastrous results.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no known protein in scorpion venom that triggers the immune system. I would find it very enlightening, however, to be proven wrong.

I have a femal friend who is allergic to latex, and all forms of rubber aswel I think, but I remember latex the most, cuz sh didnt know untill she had sex for the first time haha

ouch!

^Lori has that allergy as well. We have to buy the expensive polyurethane condoms.

pft screw that, pill, injection, dental dam watever man i hate condoms lmao

And lets go back to the thread's subject and not who can do what and stuff like that..

Hi Guys,

so here is my 2pennyworth. Having worked in the pet trade for 8 years, most spent running then managing the exotics & tropical fish departments, I can tell you categorically that the DWA is an entire waste of time, and exists as testament to the lack of knowledge in place concerning non domestic species.

The point is that it was a "well known secret" that no one got a licence, they just toodled over to Hamm, bought what they wanted and toodled back. No one died, no rampaging rattlesnakes, or latrodectus spiders. just keepers and the species they were interested in.

I am willing to bet that Defra could not produce on demand a list of all the DWA holders plus a schedule of their captive specimens. Bear in mind if we all set up petshops tomorrow, once our petshop licences (yes the same license that the petshop on the high street has for selling hamsters, leopard geckos and stick insects) came through we could be shipping in the most aggressive and dangerous specimens with no, and I do mean NO checks from experts (supposed or otherwise). Every few months we would see dwa specimens appear on the suppliers lists, (mostly excess zoo stock) and I could have happily ordered centruroides, leiurus as well as gaboon vipers and rhino vipers. Now I could have been completely inexeperienced and ordered these things.....crazy right.

The whole reason for this legislation was to stop the rampant sale of primates and big cats to members of the public, who had neither the exprience nor the facilities to maintain these specimens successfully and safely (at one point in london you could hear lions roaring from their homes in suburban gardens), NOT to stop people keeping 1 - 4" scorpions which cannot escape from that great human invention.....the plastic food storage box!

Bringing it back specifically to scorps, have you noticed I can ramble....hehe. We all know that when you are armed with a plastic storage box, 10" rubber tipped foceps and a gentle touch, you are protected completely from the ravages of all scorpion species. I am completely against any scorpions being on the list. I wonder how much thought went into the compiling of the DWA schedule.....maybe something like this. "John, what were those really bad scorpions, you know the littles straw coloured ones?" John replys " I think buthus, buthos, screw it lets just put all Buthids on and have a pint, it is friday Norman!"
"alright, I'll get my coat".

The DWA is pony. I mean the cost should at least be tiered. People who keep and breed scorps aren't gonna be made of money, and the provisions we all make for the most weakly venomous species would safely restrain the most toxic (I mean deep storage box, with lid and wingnuts), so we should only pay the process cost £22.50.

Disclaimer: I have never kept DWA species with out a licence and do not intend to.

my 2penny worth guys

^ Well said

binksyboy3 wrote:

^ Well said

cheers binksy! the more I research scorp species the more i realise i want centruroides and tityus sp to breed, but can't get them!!! arrrgh. to be honest if the DWA disappeared tomorrow I would probs give leiurus a go aswell.

What ssp do you keep?


In a bit,

G

In the UK, yes? Mangrove aren't on DWA any more...

Eek, I haven't read the whole thread!

But, I voted that "Most of it's good, but they shouldn't list ALL Buthids on it -- just the handful of dangerous ones.", as it seems most people have.

I think the pricing system is ludicrous. Some places, like round me, it's £75. Some places it's nearer £2000 (approx $4000 I think).

It is needed to stop randomers getting dangerous animals, including dangerous scorpions, but having ALL buthid on it is a bit silly.

Also, the pricing system means that in many areas is forces people to keep DWA scorpions and snakes illegaly... I've seen this SO much.

They should have a standard price no matter where you are, I think that is going to be getting discused in the future, I have heard a few whispers that prices may be coming down at the very least

lycanlord wrote:

They should have a standard price no matter where you are, I think that is going to be getting discused in the future, I have heard a few whispers that prices may be coming down at the very least

That would be good.

Tbh, as I say, in my area it's £75 + vet fees. I would really like to sort it out... would be good. I am curious as to if a certain vet needs to be used, and how much those vet fees would be though!

lycanlord wrote:

They should have a standard price no matter where you are, I think that is going to be getting discused in the future, I have heard a few whispers that prices may be coming down at the very least

Yes! Exactly.

AshMashMash wrote:

Tbh, as I say, in my area it's £75 + vet fees. I would really like to sort it out... would be good. I am curious as to if a certain vet needs to be used, and how much those vet fees would be though!

What are the vet fees?

Also, is it the same standard regardless? Rooms with light switches outside etc, if I wanna keep a B.Jacksoni do I have to take the same precautions I would with a gaboon viper to get the license?

Unfamiliar wrote:

What are the vet fees?

Also, is it the same standard regardless? Rooms with light switches outside etc, if I wanna keep a B.Jacksoni do I have to take the same precautions I would with a gaboon viper to get the license?

The vet fees are for a vet to come round with someone from environmental health and check it meets DWAL requirements I think.

And, I am really not sure! I can see how for dangerous snakes you would need the extra precautions of a viewable window, outside light switches, seal-able room etc... but not for scorps? I would assume it's the same

vet fees in harrogate are quite expensive as the vet that does them is that bloody on tv that does all the vet work for flamingo land zoo

IMO im glad Buthids are on the list, especially A. australis. They with stand pesticide and pop A LOT of babies...um yea. I live in LA california...I think they should have a requirement for Buthid keeping here as well.

I would have no problem stepping my game up to aquire the proper licensing required to keep Hots in a residential area.

In the future please refrain from "grave digging" on old threads.


As it is though, I guess I'll state my opinion.


Buthids make up a large part of the US hobby, as several species are native.

Frankly speaking, the idea of making it illegal to keep all Buthids without a (very expensive) license is completely ridiculous. As you almost certainly know, only about 25-30 of around the 2,000 species described are considered potentially deadly. Of these, with the exception of maybe one or two species, fall in the Buthidae family, which currently contains 989 described species. (As of 1/25/2013.) Therefore, only about 3% of all Buthids are considered potentially deadly to humans. Or in other words, there are about 960 Buthids that are not considered to be potentially deadly.

The genera contain medically significant species that come to my mind are Androctonus, Buthus, Centruroides, Hottentotta, Leiurus, Mesobuthus, Parabuthus, Rhopalurus, and Tityus. I can only think of two other non-buthid species that are medically significant. These are Hemiscorpius lepturus (venom has a strong necrotic effect) and Nebo hierochonticus. The venom of the latter has reportedly caused hemorrhaging and necrosis in mice. . . however, the effects of the sting of this species on humans may be totally negligible.


Not to mention, the DWA license is extremely expensive, many people are not able to afford it, and nobody in their right mind would pay that much and go through all that trouble for a few scorpions.


Am I advocating that a beginner can go buy a scorp that might kill someone because of ignorance of the risk and proper care and safety protocols?

No.
I'll be the first to say that nobody should get any "Hots" unless they have prior experience with scorpions and are already highly knowledgeable on the species, their care, and the proper safety protocols. Heck, I'd even be fine with people having to pass some sort of test before they buy a "hot," but paying to get a license that for a scorpion that may or (more likely) may not be medically significant is outrageous in my eyes.


Also, on scorpions being resistant to pesticides...those wild caught may be more resistant, but those that have been captive bred may not. his is due to natural selection.

Within a give population, you will have scorpions with varying tolerances to pesticides. If the population is exposed pesticides, those scorpions with the trait of being more resistant will be selected for, thus passing that trait on. At the same time though, because this is happening, humans start spraying more toxic pesticides in higher concentrations. Again, those more resistant will be more likely to survive and pass on that trait. Then the same thing will happen again. And again. It's an arms race.

But now imagine if a portion of the population had been taken out about halfway through that cycle, and been bred in captivity.
No pesticides.
Because of this, the trait is no longer advantageous and will not necessarily be selected for, and therefore those with a lower tolerance to pesticides will also survive and pass that trait on.

Now if one of those said individuals escapes...

Yes, it may be an individual that is more resistant.

On the other hand, it may have very little resistance.

So what I'm saying here is that it depends on the scorpion's genetics.

Scorpion19981000 wrote:

In the future please refrain from "grave digging" on old threads.


As it is though, I guess I'll state my opinion.


Buthids make up a large part of the US hobby, as several species are native.

Frankly speaking, making it illegal to keep all Buthids without a (very expensive) license is completely ridiculous. As you almost certainly know, only about 25-30 of around the 2,000 species described are considered potentially deadly. Of these, with the exception of maybe one or two species, fall in the Buthidae family, which currently contains 989 described species. (As of 1/25/2013.) Therefore, only about 3% of all Buthids are considered potentially deadly to humans. Or in other words, there are about 960 Buthids that are not considered to be potentially deadly.

I'd hate to be the one who is perpetuating this grave dug topic, but I thought DWA licenses were only needed in the UK. Does that mean if wanted to order an A. Australis from ken the bug guy right now, I would need to buy a special license?

I think you're misunderstanding. Yes, the DWA license is only in the UK.

I was responding to this:

Mako wrote:

IMO im glad Buthids are on the list, especially A. australis. They with stand pesticide and pop A LOT of babies...um yea. I live in LA california...I think they should have a requirement for Buthid keeping here as well.

I would have no problem stepping my game up to aquire the proper licensing required to keep Hots in a residential area.

So no. You don't need a license to keep an scorp in the US.

Didn't mean to grave dig. I felt I had the right to answer this question with my personal opinion.

Sorry Mods.


It is my opinion that licensing should be a mandatory requirement.

If that means that I loose my collection and develop a more serious education for Buthidae then so be it.

Most of the Androctonus that come into the U.S. are wild caught, Im sure at least 10 percent of them are gravid.

I also believe that Androctonus australis is a very hardy scorpion and captive bred animals are no different then wild caught specimens other then the lack of parasites. If anything captive breeding will strengthen genetics.

These are my personal opinions/observations.

Scorpion19981000 wrote:

.


Not to mention, the DWA license is extremely expensive, many people are not able to afford it, and nobody in their right mind would pay that much and go through all that trouble for a few scorpions.

I'm going to do it, but I'm probably not of sound mind

I've got everything ready now. My scorpion 'chalet', locked and secure. A stack of locked, escape proof vivarium's, and inside these, a load of faunariums or whatever they're called. All I need is some spare cash to apply for the licence/vet check and to pay for liability insurance. On the plus side, licences now last 2 years instead of one.

Mako wrote:

If anything captive breeding will strengthen genetics.

As far as I am aware, the genes of captive populations will weaken over generations. We provide our animals with a predator, competition and 'stress' free life, where most of the young will generally survive through to adulthood, breed, and pass on their genes to the next generation.

This would not happen in the wild where the majority of scorpions will die before adulthood, and so will not pass their genes on to the next generation. Only the individuals that are 'strong' enough to survive predation, competition, extreme environmental conditions etc. will end up successfully mating and pass on their genes. Therefore, generally speaking, only the best genes will make it on to the next generation, thus strengthening the populations' genetics.

This does not happen in captivity. Individuals that would not survive in the wild will survive and breed, so passing on potentially 'bad' or 'weak' genes, weakening the captive population. Inter-breeding is also common in captive scorpion populations, further weakening the gene pool.

How much effect this has had on captive scorpions I don't know. Interbreeding doesn't seem to do a great deal of harm like it would in mammals, for instance. The only effects I have heard of are a reduction in brood size and a also reduction in the overall size of individual scorpions after a number of generations.

You know this is a debatable subject. Atm it is fairly easy for inexperienced keepers to get some pretty hot species while at the same time making a LAW that requires even the most experienced keepers from owning buthids isn't helping the hobby. I would like to see more sellers implement rules that would require anyone under 18 to have parental consent first. Only because I know there are very experienced "underage" collectors that can definitely handle these "hots" but for the most part we can all agree that kids are more likely to make irrational decisions. That is in no way targeted to you Collin I know your an exception to your age group (and possibly a boy genius )

I can appreciate that stand point. Perhaps there should be a test that one can take to collect the super hots. Not a law but a test to see the level of expierence the collector has.