DWA Poll and Debate

I started this thread after the following two messages were posted:

*Connie* wrote:

The DWA is there for a reason! you wouldnt want any odd person having a very hot scorpion to not know the proper care and whoops it gets out and BANG some one gets stung and could die due to a reaction.

I know some people find it a pain. But I KNOW I wouldnt want the kid next door having a hot scorpion just because it was easy to get a DWA OR if there wasnt one in place.

Mr. Mordax wrote:

I beg to differ. The DWA was originally put in place to keep any random person from having a large wild cat (such as a leopard or cheetah) as was popular in the 1960s and 70s. That makes sense -- it's pretty easy for one to get loose and nom a neighbor if they are so inclined.

If scorpions were so dangerous as to be validated being on that list, you would hear lots of stories of inexperienced American hobbyists' specimens escaping and wreaking havoc (or European countries where dealers seem to get a broader range of imported species). Even in their native range, most of the "hot" species have a mortality rate of less than one percent, and scorpions are much less escape-prone than some other arthropods I could name.

I still can't believe that the entire Latrodectus genus is listed. In all my invert experience, I haven't seen a single one exhibit a behavior other than trying to run and hide.

So debate away! What are YOUR thoughts? Keep it mature, folks -- no name-calling or anything like that.

List o' restricted animals:

MAMMALS

Marsupials

The Tasmanian devil
Grey kangaroos, the euro, the wallaroo and the red kangaroo


Primates

Tamarins
New-world monkeys (including capuchin, howler, saki, spider, squirrel, titi, uakari and woolly monkeys and the night monkey (otherwise known as the douroucouli))
Old-world monkeys (including baboons, the drill, colobus monkeys, the gelada, guenons, langurs, leaf monkeys, macaques, the mandrill, mangabeys, the patas and proboscis monkeys and the talapoin)
Leaping lemurs (including the indri, sifakas and the woolly lemur)
Large lemurs (the broad-nosed gentle lemur and the grey gentle lemur are excepted)
Anthropoid apes (including chimpanzees, gibbons, the gorilla and the orang-utan)


Edentates

Sloths
The giant armadillo
The giant anteater


Rodents

The North American porcupine
The capybara
Crested porcupines


Carnivores

The giant panda and the red panda
Jackals, wild dogs, wolves and the coyote (foxes, the raccoon-dog and the domestic dog are excepted)
The bobcat, caracal, cheetah, jaguar, lion, lynx, ocelot, puma, serval, tiger and all other cats (the domestic cat is excepted)
Hyaenas (except the aardwolf)
Badgers (except the Eurasian badger), otters (except the European otter), and the tayra, wolverine, fisher and ratel (otherwise known as the honey badger)
Cacomistles, raccoons, coatis, olingos, the little coatimundi and the kinkajou
Bears
The African, large-spotted, Malay and large Indian civets, the binturong and the fossa


Pinnipedes

The walrus, eared seals, and sealions and earless seals (the common and grey seals are excepted)


Elephants

Elephants


Odd-toed ungulates

Asses, horses and zebras (the donkey, domestic horse and domestic hybrids are excepted)
Rhinoceroses
Tapirs


Hyraxes

Tree and rock hyraxes (otherwise known as dassies)


Aardvark

The aardvark


Even-toed ungulates

The Pronghorn
Antelopes, bison, buffalo, cattle, gazelles, goats and sheep (domestic cattle, goats and sheep are excepted)
Camels, the guanaco and the vicugna (the domestic llama and alpaca are excepted)
The moose or elk and the caribou or reindeer (the domestic reindeer is excepted)
The giraffe and the okapi
The hippopotamus and the pygmy hippopotamus
Old-world pigs (including the wild boar and the wart hog) (the domestic pig is excepted)
New-world pigs (otherwise known as peccaries)
Mammalian hybrids with a parent (or parents) of a specified kind


BIRDS

Cassowaries and emu

Cassowaries
The emu


Ostrich

The ostrich


REPTILES

Crocodilians

Alligators and caimans
Crocodiles and the false crocodiles
The gavial


Lizards and snakes

Mole vipers and certain rear-fanged venomous snakes (including the moila and montpellier snakes, sand snakes, twig snakes, the mangrove (otherwise known as the yellow-ringed catsnake), the boomslang, the red-necked keelback and the yamakagashi (otherwise known as the Japanese tiger-snake))
Certain front-fanged venomous snakes (including cobras, coral snakes, the desert black snake, kraits, mambas, sea snakes and all Australian poisonous snakes (including the death adders))
The gila monster and the (Mexican) beaded lizard
Certain front-fanged venomous snakes (including adders, the barba amarilla, the bushmaster, the copperhead, the fer-de-lance, moccasins, rattlesnakes and vipers)


INVERTEBRATES

Spiders

Wandering spiders
The Sydney funnel-web spider and its close relatives
The Brazilian wolf spider
Brown recluse spiders (otherwise known as violin spiders)
The black widow spider (otherwise known as redback spider) and its close relatives


Scorpions

Buthid scorpions

I think it is, in some ways, good. but in other ways it is REALLY *insert many bad words here*
frustraiting. it's really annoying when people want to expand thier collections, and get some buthids.



it's the fact that Buthidae contains A huge part of the scorpion family... apart from buthids there isn't much else around apart from Pandinus, hets, and a few other genera.


so, I only think the "dangerous" buthids should be on the list, and I don't think it should be so damn hard to get a liscence.

it's about £2000 for a liscence in certain areas of wales. and it's extortionate in areas of england too.

I edited the poll to make it multiple-choice and allow vote-canceling, so you can change it to those two options you'd like (not all Buthids, not a pain).

WOW, I never knew you could keep elephants! thats crazy

Not without a DWA license . . .

and a big back garden...

i guess i don't see a problem with a licensing scheme.
however it's a pain to get, definitely.
next year i believe they are changing it to make it easier, ie flat rate, one Veterinary visit every two years, etc.
i may go for it then.
Buthidae as stated above are a big genus, and i think it contains MANY lovely animals, that aren't even that dangerous.

as to how susceptible you are to the venom...unfortunately you could be so allergic to Tarantula venom that you'd die...but you wouldn't know it! and they are not DWA!

Leiurus quinquestriatus if i've spelled that correctly has the most potent venom of all scorpions, yet from what i'm told, only 3% of all envenomations are lethal? not a risk i want to take, thanks, but that's gotta be comparable to lethal bee stings due to allergy for crying out loud! and what if those 3% WERE due to allergy?

what about some of the Heterometrus that are so persistent in their stinging that they have actually caused deaths (again, that's just what i've been told. specifically H swammerdami).

Centipedes are painfully venomous...yet no hint of them on the DWA. i'd like to keep it that way, personally! i love them

hmm it's a tough question...wouldn't want the neighbourhood yob keeping deadly animals all willy nilly (though there isn't much to stop him short of being caught!)
but us keepers who endeavour to be responsible...surely we should be able to, in the name of scientific research AND conservation?
difficult to prove yes, and having a scheme that you pay for does weed out those who don't care enough to pay...
but then it shouldn't be extortionate either.

if they became more easily obtainable then i would most definately get one! if it was say one payment of £65 for the whole of the UK then it would start an interest in more dangerous creatures and would help the more responsible side of the pet trade/breeders and should keep them out of "pure profit" pet shops that sell what everyone can buy and wants to buy. maybee diferent levels of DWA??? eg. 1. large cats, wolves, giraffes, elephants ect. 2. crocodillians and smaller dangerous mammals ect. 3. venomous reptiles, "hot" invertibrates ect. 4. lower end of potentially dangerous creatures.
i dont think all buthids should be DWA. if they were to put just one of the less dangerous buthids on sale it should be B. jacksoni (normal and chocolate morph) and then i will be happy!

I would kill for some...

stigmurus
rhopalurus
centruroides

Quote :

if they were to put just one of the less dangerous buthids on sale it should be B. jacksoni (normal and chocolate morph) and then i will be happy!

hear hear!

Quote :

I would kill for some...

stigmurus
rhopalurus
centruroides

what the heck...
hear hear!

those would be my second choise. i love things that can be put on display but dont need to take up much space

and the extremely communal nature of Tityus stigmurus also some of them are parthogenic as well.

They should keep just a few animals of real concern.

It's more likely for a higher being to encounter humans. Inverts don't really cover much area if it where to escape.


With higher beings you must interact with them when you feed, shower, clean their cages, etc. With inverts there is not much which lowers the risk of accidents happening, you just drop a cricket in the secured vivarium.

that's a good point, definitely.

the only issue that would argue for control with inverts is that you will get some that think it's great to handle them...and accidents can happen, and animals lost (to pose a risk to someone else, potentially).

if no one wanted to handle them, and left them be in a secure tank, there'd be no issue, but sadly, as with all things, the law that restricts the sensible keepers is there to stop the minority of idiots from removing themselves from the gene pool.
sad that!

I have never seen evidence of a death due to any scorpion outside of Buthidae (which is a family, by the way), and if such an event did occur, I'm willing to bet that it was due to secondary infection of the sting.

I've also yet to hear of a conclusive case of anaphylaxis due to a scorpion sting (or a tarantula bite). Everyone says " . . . unless you are allergic," but no one has provided me an example of someone actually being allergic.

Bee venom is different in nature from that of arachnids and seems quite prone to causing allergic reactions.

I don't get the difference between genera and family lol.

Kingdom > Phylum > Class > Order > Family > Genus > species

Animalia > Arthropoda > Arachnida > Scorpiones > Buthidae > Babycurus > jacksoni

Ah, cheers.

Venom wrote:

They should keep just a few animals of real concern.

It's more likely for a higher being to encounter humans. Inverts don't really cover much area if it where to escape.


With higher beings you must interact with them when you feed, shower, clean their cages, etc. With inverts there is not much which lowers the risk of accidents happening, you just drop a cricket in the secured vivarium.

I totally agree with your statement, Venom.

Just out of curiosity... Is there a list of restricted captive animals in the US?

I know that I want to get a caimen again. They're so cool and unrestricted, IIRC.

There's a scorpion missed off the list, it's

Hemioscorpiidae:
All species of the species Hemiscorpius lepturus

It has a rather nasty type of necrotoxin. Funnily enough me and graham have been talking about this scorpion over last couple of days. That the only reason I spotted it was missing off the list.

I fully believe the DWA should remain in place and I am pleased to see that the license will be uniform across the country instead of every local authority charging whatever they feel like charging. This makes is financially easier attainable but the basic knowledge and competence is still required when applying.
Although I think there should be more research into the buthids and make a lot of them non DWA. However opening that debate will inevitably bring Tarantula's into review and there are a few that although they will not kill you, can leave you in cramps for months or with serious tendon / muscle damage.
But it is there to ensure that your average jo doesn't go out buying something they know little about and causing themselves and possibly others harm. In order to acquire a DWA you must show that you are knowledgeable in the species you intend to keep and correctly house them. As well as show that in case of an emergency (being stung in case of scorpions) you have adequate information to pass to the emergency services.

Most 'kills' by scorpions are not attributed to the venom itself. In fact scorpions can carry tetanus and it is this disease that kills and not the venom, although that doesn't help. Although I believe this is more with wild caught scorpions rather than captive bred ones.
So a sting from say... a spinifer in the wild could cause death in a person who hasn't had immunisation.
And there are the unlucky people who may be allergic to a chemical element of the venom.

But i think it is a licence that is never reviewed fully and there will be gains and losses if the government were to go into it properly.

you beat me to it lisa

LOL, there is a vid on youtube I saw and the guy has a H.L, i'm betting £60 he has no idea how nasty a sting this scorp can deliver. he's holding it, poking it with his finger.



dear god.

well this is the result of an adult H.lepturus sting to a child
I showed this to lisa when we were talking about them lol

wow, see what you mean by the necrosis. that is NASTY.

eek... (probably should have put that in link form BTW...)