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 False bottom setup for my emps

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Gimmexdatxbrain
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PostSubject: False bottom setup for my emps   8/29/2010, 2:27 am

I want to do a false bottom setup and I want to make it like this:

http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com/scorpion-pictures-videos-f13/new-false-bottom-setup-no-rocks-t3139.htm?highlight=false+bottom

I was curious if i could use this black window screen i found in the garage as the screen to hold back the substrate and if i could paint the pvc or something because it seems like such an eyesore(nothing against your setup bjaeger, im just picky and want it to look nice while being practical). The screen appears to be plastic or something like that and it doesnt hold its shape so there shouldnt be any metal in it. I originally wanted to put rocks in the bottom because i thought it would look nicer then the pvc but ive got a really bad back with having 3 spinal surgeries and possibly more to come, so the lighter the better. Thats the part that made me want to do this particular false bottom setup because i was concerned about all the rocks and my tank is aboslutely HUGE and really heavy as it is. i know i can find black egg crate, and i have access to pvc( g.f.'s dad runs his own plumbing company). So the whole upgrade, if you could call it that, would be pretty much an easy to get setup and the only thing i would have to buy would be the egg crate, if i could use the black screen that is. So, could i use this screen and how could i hide the white without causing possible harm to my scorps?
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the lycan mikey
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/29/2010, 10:06 am

rinse the screen and clean it as best as possible...

make sure the water touches your substrate...

and you can use paint...but it has to be the type of paint suitable for toddlers and children
(no chemicals, non toxic, and be absolutely sure it doesnt run when the humidity rises)
and be absolutely sure its as smooth as possible (hard to do) all an emp or any kind of scorp to my knowledge needs is a little bit of ridging to grab ahold of and they will climb up it or run all over it

i have a false bottom setup with rocks and i had the same issue with the PVC, so i just took the time to research different paints...

i would take a pic, but my dad rebuilt my computer and i dont have memory card slots for my digital cam anymore...
so until i get an external memory card reader, im kinda just stuck trying to explain it...
(kinda ridiculous too, i wanna take new pics of my scorpions =/ )
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Gimmexdatxbrain
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/29/2010, 9:54 pm

alright sweet, i had no idea that they actually had paint like that but i will find it. also, if you do get that card reader i would like to see what you did Very Happy

any tips on going about cleaning out this setup?
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the lycan mikey
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/29/2010, 10:42 pm

cleaning what??

if you get coco fiber, it does a good job of breaking down the....#2...that the scorpions make
(jungle n forest types)

if you want to clean up excess feeder parts the scorps didnt eat, you could use isopods (roly polys and etc.) just make sure they come from somewhere that hasnt had pesticides or chemicals sprayed around it...

and my theory i went by on the paint is, if a child can ingest it and nothing happens, its worth the trial and error....i did mine a basic black...but now that i look at it...i wanna add silver designs....but that means itll add ridging and id have to get another set of clips to hold the lid on for the back...
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Gimmexdatxbrain
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/29/2010, 11:07 pm

i have coco fiber as my substrate its just every so often i should atleast clean it out ya know. I was lookin around for isopods and stuff and im not sure where to get them or if its a right price. I saw on ken the bug guys site that i could buy them but idk it seems like he sells a lot of them and i dont think i need that many. oh, as for the silver designs maybe you should do like a clear coat to even out the ridging.
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/29/2010, 11:37 pm

isopods can be found in the woods dude...even in neighborhoods under rocks, wood, etc...
just beware of pesticides and stuff...

cocofiber doesnt have to be changed that often...every 6 months or so, change it out...
unless it still looks good...ive had mine for about...10 months and it still looks the same as when i put it in the bucket with water...


i had that thought too on the clear coat...but i havent gotten around to see if they make non toxic, no chemicals, and make sure its some kind of green friendly...
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Gimmexdatxbrain
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 3:59 am

see thats the part im worried about, i want to avoid bringing stuff like that into my cage from the outside world because im not sure if the neighbors lay down pesticides and im pretty sure if I went over to their houses and asked them if they spray pesticides that would be kind of weird. especially with my ummm, piercings and 1 inch gauges in my ears they would most certainly be frightened for their lives by my appearance and be confused about how nice i am and why i am asking such things. you know how florida is, full of mad old people and their pesticides. im pretty sure if they make non toxic, no chemical spray paint they must make a clear coat, it wouldnt make sense not having it. After lookin around a little bit at this:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/aquarium/msg0213001912569.html

I found someone saying that they used acrylic latex spray paint with no issues in an aquarium for 10 years. I mean, if they could spray paint a stupid underwater castle thingy with their fishes swimming in it this stuff it shouldnt be a problem, especially if it has lasted that long without flaking or fishes dying from toxins. Also, im guessing that patio furniture spray paint should work as well. With that in mind it should work, just got to make sure it completely cures before setting it inside the tank, even if it takes a week or so. What do you think? Oh, and thanks for the heads up about the changing the substrate every 6 months or past that if necessary, i appreciate it. Its a good thing too because my tank can take atleast 4 blocks of the stuff to make it decently within the 4-6 inches deep area, not like it matters cause they dont burrow very deep anyway. but if they did, do you think they could burrow through the plastic screen? should i double it up just to be safe or what? sorry about all the questions i always have a lot to ask if i cant just research it and find out.
lol!
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 9:15 am

Gimmexdatxbrain wrote:

1. see thats the part im worried about, i want to avoid bringing stuff like that into my cage from the outside world because im not sure if the neighbors lay down pesticides and im pretty sure if I went over to their houses and asked them if they spray pesticides that would be kind of weird. especially with my ummm, piercings and 1 inch gauges in my ears they would most certainly be frightened for their lives by my appearance and be confused about how nice i am and why i am asking such things. you know how florida is, full of mad old people and their pesticides.

2. I found someone saying that they used acrylic latex spray paint with no issues in an aquarium for 10 years. I mean, if they could spray paint a stupid underwater castle thingy with their fishes swimming in it this stuff it shouldnt be a problem, especially if it has lasted that long without flaking or fishes dying from toxins. Also, im guessing that patio furniture spray paint should work as well. With that in mind it should work, just got to make sure it completely cures before setting it inside the tank, even if it takes a week or so. What do you think? Oh, and thanks for the heads up about the changing the substrate every 6 months or past that if necessary, i appreciate it. Its a good thing too because my tank can take atleast 4 blocks of the stuff to make it decently within the 4-6 inches deep area, not like it matters cause they dont burrow very deep anyway. but if they did, do you think they could burrow through the plastic screen? should i double it up just to be safe or what? sorry about all the questions i always have a lot to ask if i cant just research it and find out.
lol!


1. Lol i totally get that...worst comes to worst, someone on here said at one point that if you can collect enough and get them to breed, the 2 or 3rd generation would be "whatever" free...

2. i dont know about that....they make a dozen and a half chemicals for fish tanks to neutralize this or raise that...scorpions are more of a natual approach...but it could have its silver lining...
yeah definitely let it sit and cure...

i have a 30 gallon (long) tank, and i only have 3-4 inches worth in it because it houses 2 adult females (emps) that appearantly have no interest in digging (i made them caves from different types of flat rock), but i havent changed it in about 10 months like i said...when i do, its gonna easily take the better part of 5 bricks for my 3 tanks...unless i house my C. hentzi in something bigger? scratch

but on the other hand, i have a 4i unsexed emperor, in a average 10 gallon tank, with 6+ inches of substrate, that religiously burrows. i was lucky enough that it burrowed up close to the glass, so now theres like a 3 inch line thats about an inch wide gap that i can peer into the burrow to check on it from time to time...also there is no false bottom in this tank...

you can double it up if you want, but i dont think a scorpion is gonna sit right on top of water....when i flood my false bottom, the adults try to get away from the water that seeps up into the ground level...and one of the caves is a little higher than the other so they just kind of bunk together for a little while...
i dont know about the 4i, with his( sorry, im impartial to it being a male =) ) burrow i try to keep water away by pouring a glass of water in a corner farthest from the burrow...

but yeah dude i cant answer everything, but i can tell you about what ive observed with my scorpions =)
on top of that dude, everyone here is here to help each other out...
so dont ever think that you ask too many questions...
i asked about a thousand questions when i joined Embarassed
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Dracennights
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 8:48 pm

I thought about something that could be used for making the false bottom that wouldn't be heavy...kind of goes off those using the pvc couplings only cheaper... what I plan on doing is buying 1 or 2 sticks of the black (could use the white but you would see them more) pvc water pipes (these are safe to use on humans so scorps should be the same) then I'm going to cut the pipe into random lengths lets say between 1/2'-4" then dumping them into the bottom of the tank they would stack at random depth which would make it more like the gravel idea.. giving you the uneven surface same as the rocks only way liter and you should be able to get the pipe at almost any hardware/lumber store for under $3-5 a stick and depending on your tank size you might need a couple of sticks but I can't see needing more then 3 on almost any tank...

the benefit I see with these is that unlike the plastic light grate it's uneven giving you more surface area keeping the humidity correct longer... and this would be lite I will take pics and do i write-up on this when I do it....
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 9:09 pm

the rocks dont always give you an uneven surface...
mine laid out pretty flat with some minor manipulation...

as for your idea, i dont get it....
are the pipes laying down or standing at those different heights?
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Dracennights
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 9:15 pm

they would lay how they fall... only laying over the big tall ones...


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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 9:32 pm

so theyd also be different widths to?
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 9:36 pm

I figured that it would be laying down if anything, i dont mean to be offensive or anything Drace, but i really dont know what you are going for. I can understand that in theory that would be able to create more surface area but if they are positioned either laying down or all over the place that would mean that some areas are more water logged then others which i would think wouldnt make an even uprising humidity. I mean, im not shooting you down or anything, i think you should definetely try it, but a write up would definetely be necessary with lots and lots of pics through the whole thing. you never know, it could work out as planned. Oh, and im going to cut pipe to make the legs, not use couplings.

Quote :
1. Lol i totally get that...worst comes to worst, someone on here said at one point that if you can collect enough and get them to breed, the 2 or 3rd generation would be "whatever" free...

Quote :
2. you can double it up if you want, but i dont think a scorpion is gonna sit right on top of water....when i flood my false bottom, the adults try to get away from the water that seeps up into the ground level...and one of the caves is a little higher than the other so they just kind of bunk together for a little while...
i dont know about the 4i, with his( sorry, im impartial to it being a male =) ) burrow i try to keep water away by pouring a glass of water in a corner farthest from the burrow...

1. Thats not a bad idea, though i dont really want to go trudging through the woods looking under stuff and accidentally find a rattlesnake or something. I think im just going to suck it up and do it.

2. Im just worried for the "what if" scenario. If i would find a scorp floating in the very bottom i would be devastated. Im going to put in a pipe leading to the reservoir from near the top of the tank in a corner to avoid bothering them.

I love asking and answering questions. i appreciate your willing to share, as i am also willing to share. Thank you!

Im going to start running around tomorrow and start gathering and preparing everything for this false bottom setup, i will be taking lots of pics and let you guys know everything the whole way. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 10:16 pm

ok as far as my idea goes think of the pieces of pipe as different sized rocks.. and just over a layer of them so that some lay on their sides and others stand on end now that would more then likely give you an uneven surface area... thus giving you more surface the lower spots would pick up the same amount of water as the uppers when the water level is up but once the water level drops below the upper areas the lower areas would still pick up water and while it wouldn't be as much as the full bottom picking up water it should give you enough to keep the humidity up most of the way....so lets say instead of adding water once a week you can now add it once every week and a half....I take several trip each year and some are over a week long so tank care is something I like to plan ahead and this way all my petsitter will have to do is feed.....as far as the tube to add the water to the false bottom goes what I was thinking of doing was using one of the clear under gravel filter tubes... thus hiding it from few more...and also making it so you can fill from up high in the tank saving reaching into the tank to often...


I will more then likely buy the pipe and get the false bottom started tomorrow.. but I will not be adding the substrate for a bit because I'm having a new stand custom built... my emp tank is a 40 gallon breeder tank....and I'm having a stand built that will hold 2+ of these tanks.... I would build it but I have a friend who is a pro that just got laid off so this will make sure its the best quilty for the money.....I will post pics as soon as things get under way...


BTW petco has tanks on sale...$2 a gallon saved me more then $70 on my 40 gallon breeder.....
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 10:44 pm

that sounds awesome, guess where i am going tomorrow!!!!

well, you should update this post when you are getting your setup because i will be doing the same.

Are you having the stand welded or what? Ive been wanting to make my own shelving unit to house my huge tank and make upper shelves to start building a collection. I love welding and would like to make stand and stuff like that. pics pics pics! dont disappoint. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 10:49 pm

LOL the stand is going to be wood...... I though about doing metal (I'm a welder/electrician) but I felt that metal wouldn't match the other stuff in my living room so I settled on wood... I will post pics as soon as I get everything started... and please do the same...
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/30/2010, 11:03 pm

Gimmexdatxbrain wrote:
I figured that it would be laying down if anything, i dont mean to be offensive or anything Drace, but i really dont know what you are going for. I can understand that in theory that would be able to create more surface area but if they are positioned either laying down or all over the place that would mean that some areas are more water logged then others which i would think wouldnt make an even uprising humidity. I mean, im not shooting you down or anything, i think you should definetely try it, but a write up would definetely be necessary with lots and lots of pics through the whole thing. you never know, it could work out as planned. Oh, and im going to cut pipe to make the legs, not use couplings.

Quote :
1. Lol i totally get that...worst comes to worst, someone on here said at one point that if you can collect enough and get them to breed, the 2 or 3rd generation would be "whatever" free...

Quote :
2. you can double it up if you want, but i dont think a scorpion is gonna sit right on top of water....when i flood my false bottom, the adults try to get away from the water that seeps up into the ground level...and one of the caves is a little higher than the other so they just kind of bunk together for a little while...
i dont know about the 4i, with his( sorry, im impartial to it being a male =) ) burrow i try to keep water away by pouring a glass of water in a corner farthest from the burrow...

1. Thats not a bad idea, though i dont really want to go trudging through the woods looking under stuff and accidentally find a rattlesnake or something. I think im just going to suck it up and do it.

2. Im just worried for the "what if" scenario. If i would find a scorp floating in the very bottom i would be devastated. Im going to put in a pipe leading to the reservoir from near the top of the tank in a corner to avoid bothering them.

I love asking and answering questions. i appreciate your willing to share, as i am also willing to share. Thank you!

Im going to start running around tomorrow and start gathering and preparing everything for this false bottom setup, i will be taking lots of pics and let you guys know everything the whole way. Very Happy

1. lol...ive lived in NW florida all my life and i dont think ive ever seen a rattlesnake...ive heard of people finding them, but it was always in the middle of nowhere in the woods...
stick to trails, youll see them coming than lol...
and if im correct, not 100% positive, but i dont think rattlesnakes would sit under a rock or wood in the middle of the day when it could be soaking in the sun =) like i said not 100% sure


2. i dont think the scorpions would even want to be around the water...i know mine run away when i pour water around them, but every animal is different...
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LXDNG79
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/31/2010, 1:17 am

Dude if you live in Florida... or any region of the world near the equator... I hardly think such an elaborate false-bottom setup would be necessary. I also found that emps tend to like it on the hot-side rather than damp... but still moist.

Heterometrus are more likely to like it cool and damp.

But if you're main aim is to do practically no misting at all or just or learning how to do one exactly like it than by all means...

just thought the weather in Florida would be fine for keeping any tropical species... I could be wrong never been there myself...

Cheers.. always good to see that the hobby is growing Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/31/2010, 1:34 am

Another thing about the issue of pesticides and stuff... at least in my opinion a lot of people be it bio-chemist or your average laymen across the board... tend to get really edgy on that...

Considering that scorpions are reputed to have the capacity to survive radiation exposure from an atomic fallout which effortlessly causes our flesh to melt off the bone with sanguine ease... The last thing I'd worry about is pesticides...

Ask any pest controller, they will tell you that spiders and scorpions are ridiculously tough to pesticides. Sometimes, they can't even kill them with those chemicals.

Warranting the possibility of chemical-accumulation in the body (being that everything even orange juice has some lethal dosage), it is possible to believe such molecular components; be ammonium based even hydro-chlorics have little or no effect on the internal biological systematics of scorpions in general; allow for marginal variables depending on the species...

I'm not advocating most of you start spraying your pets to put this theory and yourself to bed... my point is... relax lah! chill out... if things are alive and well they can't be that bad... I'm sure the natural world at this point is subjected to ample chemical substances man-made or otherwise...

Nonetheless, your genuine concerns are testimony to your fervent enthusiasm for the hobby...

Cheers... Very Happy

P.S. most of scorpion death in captivity is related more to temperature than humidity.
1. Don't leave any part of the tank directly under the suns rays as this will heat up the enclosure beyond anything tropical scorpions can withstand.
2. If you live in a cold country... oh dear... I can't say I can vouch for any experience of this in my part but one way to euthanize a scorpion is to put it in the freezer... so watch the temp gauges if in case of winter (a weather I personally don't experience with great frequency in Borneo lol)
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   8/31/2010, 2:26 am

yeah...or you could listen to him (alex)

(i would) lol
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   9/1/2010, 3:44 am

you could try this... which is my setup... using all natural elements

http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com/the-burrow-in-ghana-emperor-zone-f34/pandinus-imperator-communal-enclosure-with-a-pool-t5104.htm

I also posted a tutorial on this forum for tropical setups
http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com/scorpion-guides-tutorials-f18/creating-a-natural-looking-forest-floor-habitat-t3815.htm

For Emps enclosures I would like to see pics of their natural environment... when you see i where they live and how they make their homes in the wild... then you have a much clearer picture on what elements you have to provide them to make them feel comfortable in a captive situation... to the point the can't tell the difference...

how to know if your scorpion is comfortable...

1. during the day its staying hidden... and out of sight.
2. in the night when all the lights are out, its out hunting or laying in ambush at the entrance of its burrow.

I hope you find it helpful... I'm no certified expert in invert-keeping but I've been keeping and breeding scorpions since I was 9...
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   9/1/2010, 4:43 am

Well, one reason i wanted to do a false bottom is mainly so i dont have to pour water in there constantly. Florida has a lot of humidity, outside, when i put it my hygrometer it read 50%, i covered the tank lid with a towel and it read 55%. I want to get it to a good percentage and i also want to put some live plants which needs a false bottom setup. i also wanted to make my false bottom out of pvc so that it will be lighter, which i previously stated. I would love to do one of your style setups, lxdng79, but my current tank is far too big to be full of rocks, it would be unmovable. your tank setups are nothing but amazing(some of the first ive seen and made me want to do a false bottom in the first place) but i simply cant make that sort of elaborate approach right now. when my collection continues to grow though, i shall do almost if not exactly what you have recommended for my tropical tank setup. oh, as for the rattle snake thing, ive actually seen atleast ten, give or take, and have had to kill one as ordered by my grandfather(back when i was young and did what i was told). I pretty much live in an area that isnt completly populated yet so there are a bunch of animals like that runnin around. My grandfather also had pics of some wild panthers that lived around where he lives from about ten years ago. I mean, i live in a city, but its still not built up enough to be considered a real city. Smile

On a different note, i went shopping today!



I got a sheet of egg crate, package of ecoearth, some spaghum moss, spray paint, a plant that someone shown me on the forum that works with the scorps(im not using the whole plant its in sections and im only going to put in part of it and then the gf is going to take the rest) and then i cut some pvc for the tube to fill the reservoir, put a small notch at the bottom, and then cut 8 smaller pieces for the legs. Im going to start painting it tomorrow and getting everything ready and then wait the long week or whenever to make sure that it cures. what do you guys think? Cool
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   9/2/2010, 1:24 am

Ah yes... you are right... the weight thing is one drawback... I'm lucky to have friends around to help move stuff over a 6-pack...

Considering what you're looking for and what you want... I believe you're on the right track. Do give us a tour of the end result when it is finished... it would a good guide for others who want to do something similar.

I must admit, I've never tried this type of setup... with the exception of one time when I was trying to culture chubby frogs... disaster... water fouls very quickly... and is constantly stained a yucky tan.... but that is frogs not scorpions... still I was discouraged to apply the approach to a tropical setup....

If you would be so kind as to give us a pictorial tutorial of how you're putting it together (step-by-step), as you go about... this thread will come very much in handy since... there have been ample references for false bottom setups specifically for poison-dart frogs, and even tarantulas... but nothing so pertinently relevant to scorpions...

your contribution in this aspect will be highly regarded as it shall be appreciated.

in your quest to learn, it is not unlikely you will end up inspiring others with imparting what you already knew Cool

Cheers guys this rounds is on me (chugs beer mug)
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Gimmexdatxbrain
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PostSubject: Re: False bottom setup for my emps   9/2/2010, 3:36 am

No problem LXDNG79. I made a awesome tutorial for mealworms that you should take a look at so im familiar with the process, it made me feel like i was doing a book report...


http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com/feeder-caresheets-and-distrubutors-f24/mealworm-farm-diy-t5156.htm

Also, should i post it somewhere else and start new or should i attach this whole turorial onto this thread?
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