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 Breeding attempt H arizonensis

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shaneshac
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PostSubject: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 3:47 am

In the next couple of days I will be receiving an adult male and female Hadrurus and a sub adult female hadrurus

My plan is to try and get a brood from them at some point.

Any pointers for this particular species that may be different from the rest?

I know the mating ritual must be watched carefully as the female can become violent pretty quickly.

Other than that, anything else I should be aware of?

I have also read contradicting information about putting the female in the males enclosure or the other way around. In tarantulas its always the male in the female enclosure but have read its the other way in scorps

Can someone shed some light on this one too?

Thanks and I will post some pics as soon as they are received

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Bayss
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 9:19 am

Two main issues here. First issue, as you mention, they can be aggressive toward each other...cannibalistic is more accurate. That said, some people have kept and bred them in communal enclosures...Eddy??? Big enclosure, deep substrate and multiple hides. Really do your research...they do not usually breed in captivity...most are gravid WC specimens. Some breeders have luck by recreating a "winter" period, and then warming things up to simulate their natural spring breeding cycle. Regarding which enclosure to use...one trick is to take one scorpion out, then rearrange the hides and decorations before introducing both into the enclosure. By moving things around you can reduce "territorial disputes." I would get a third enclosure with a large flat rock to just use for breeding attempts...introduce, observe, and separate. I've read that scorpions do make an enclosure their own with chemical markers and patterns...this is why you rearrange things to reduce the risk of the new tank mate being seen as a threatening intruder.

Second big issue...Haddy's don't molt successfully in captivity. In a nutshell, it is too difficult to create the humidity gradient in captivity, that they have in nature. This genus is a desert species, very prone to mycosis, that can dig 3 to 6 foot burrows to find that "sweet spot" humidity they need to molt. Very tough to recreate in a ten gallon full of play sand. False bottom enclosures may help. Check out the Haddy enclosure tutorial that Shebeen has on this forum. Make the enclosure substrate deep, use a screen top for good air flow, and use less water in the false bottom than you think you should.

One idea would be to set your sub-adult female up with such an enclosure. WalMart has a cylinder 3.5 gallon acrylic fish tank with an undergravel filter for $30 if you are in the US. This would be easy to convert into a false bottom enclosure. To make a larger enclosure you could build a false bottom in a plastic garbage can with PVC pipe down the center...this would be ridiculously heavy...and you will need one for each scorpling. Really research Hadrurus info online. There is a lot of info on this species compared to others. I love these as adults because they are very hardy and are a good size. I hope this helps you with the planning stages. Wish you the best of luck...they are a great scorpion. I really like all the talk about breeding projects lately on the forum. Very Happy All these projects and sharing of information ups the learning curve for all of us.
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shaneshac
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 9:24 am

I have actually pushed some tubes into the substrate so I can put water down and it will absorb from the bottom upwards

This should have the same effect as a false bottom i believe.

thanks for the info, i will keep a separate enclosure for mating and see how that turns out! Getting 2 females so as long as de male does not become a McHadrurus nugget, it should double my chances! Wink
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Bayss
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 9:42 am

Use very little water in the tubes...there is a whole other science to how sand and water mix. Use a very small amount...wait a day to see how it dispersed before adding more. I should mention that I did try a male/female enclosure back in 2002 before I had the benefit of this forum. I very quickly had one highly nourished Haddy. I've never bred these, but I think about how it could be done successfully. Talk with breeders who have been successful with this species. Good luck!
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shaneshac
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 9:48 am

Thanks, I am using a mix of sand, clay and coco fibre, packed down so tunneling is possible and the caves do not collapse. need to to see how the water is absorbed

In hindsight i may have been able to bury a shoelace or rope from one side of the enclosure to the other and dip the end in a jar of water.
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Patcho
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 2:07 pm

Eddy mentioned spraying water under hides in a Haddy enclosure. Like say you have 3 hides, spray only one or two of them.

Here are some links about the climate of their natural habitat.

http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/sonoran_desert_climate.htm
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?zoneid=CAZ523

Also, has anybody ever consider WIND SPEED for this species? Their natural habitat does consist of little rainfall, and gusts of wind. So what if maybe proper air circulation is a contributing factor with molting problems? Proper humidity is necessary, but can cause mycosis. So maybe having a small layer of moist sand (or whatever mixture of substrate the hobbyist believes is suitable for this species) at the bottom of the terrarium with a small fan on top of the tank to sort of recreate their natural climate. Food for thought.

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Bayss
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 6:29 pm

Very true...so many factors could be involved...lights, temps, humidity, air flow, vibrations, scents, etc.
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~Abyss~
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/3/2013, 6:41 pm

You know for all the information we have on Hadrurus sp. we need to finally once and for all come up with a way to be able to successfully breed and raise the young. We are over collecting specimens and it makes me sad to think these guys might not be available (or as available). We have to start breeding these and fast so 10 points shaneshac for attempting a breeding project. It highly encouraged and appreciated all the information given on this thread is good. I suggest you take as many notes as possible for us when you attempt your breeding project try to note feedings, temps, mating attempts, what types of hides were used, when it burrows, how long it stays in the burrow, ect. The more detailed information we can get the better idea we can have on how to successfully breed these.
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shaneshac
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/4/2013, 4:25 am

Ok i will get as much information as possible and keep posting it on this thread. If I am succesful we can move all the useful bits to another thread.

First step, collect the parcel later today Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/4/2013, 8:47 am

Ok so lets see what you think of this idea instead of a false bottomed tank

Bury a taped up rope deep into the substrate and only allow the section that sits at the very bottom to be untaped

Each end is dipped in water every so often so the wick effect takes humidity to the bottom of the viv.

The haddy should be able to dig as close to the humidity as it feels like

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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/4/2013, 11:04 am

Thatís interesting, what are you planning to use as your wick?
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shaneshac
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/4/2013, 11:08 am

Not sure, a rope of some sort,

I guess anything that readily absorbs water and is not going to rot inside the substrate will do.

You could even use one of those nets that you buy to separate the back seat of the car from the trunk

That would provide a lattice of humidity across the base of the tank. May even be good for forest scorps so there is alway humidity from the bottom up
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shebeen
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/4/2013, 1:11 pm

I think a fill tube would be a simpler solution. That being said, I find 1/2 inch nylon rope works well for wicks. You want the soft pliable type, not the stiff type. For an underlayment, you could use a piece of aquarium filter pad. Neither one of these materials will rot.
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/4/2013, 1:15 pm

Thanks

Maybe silicone tubing with fine holes would work. Will see what i come up with.

I am now the proud owner of three Harizonensis. Adult male and female and sub adult female. All in great shape.

Will post pics later
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/6/2013, 2:01 pm

I did a simple experiment using the following setup:

- 2.5 gallon tank
- dry loose substrate mix of 80/20 play sand/Excavator Clay
- aquarium filter pad underlayment
- PVC fill tube
- 4 oz of water

Before adding water:
 

After adding water:
 

The problem I see here is that the filter pad underlayment doesn't disperse the water evenly across the bottom of the tank before it is absorbed by the substrate. I would expect an external wicking scheme such as shaneshac describes would have the same problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/6/2013, 2:37 pm

Ok but wouldnt that provide an even better humidity gradient?

In nature there will never be anything evenly distributed.
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/6/2013, 7:16 pm

Update, just found all three haddies out smoking mealworm cigars. They seem to be settling in ok.

Will try to take some pics tomorrow
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/7/2013, 3:18 pm

Are you keeping all three together in the same tank at the moment?
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shaneshac
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/7/2013, 4:03 pm

No each in their own temporary faunabox.

All have settled in and are comfortable in their hides. Will start getting their permanent residence ready this week.

In the meantime i am feeding them up so i can try and mate them as soon as i move them into their new homes

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PostSubject: Re: Breeding attempt H arizonensis   4/7/2013, 4:46 pm

Here are the promised pics!

Adult male


Subadult female


Have not managed to get a nice pic of the adult female but promise to do so as soon as she stops being so feisty
Laughing

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