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shadowfoot
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 3:56 pm

Mako wrote:
how they react to envenomations from LQs and AAs
I would hazard a guess and say that the rural Middle East and North Africa where A.australis and L.quinquestriatus occur would have even worse medical services than South Africa does, definitely the North African countries. Not to mention the starvation problems they have up there in Africa.
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Scorpion19981000
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 6:23 pm

Joey man, you hit the nail right on the head.




Keith, here's the thing....

The dangerousness of scorpions has been greatly exaggerated.

Does that mean that certain species are not potentially lethal animals with highly toxic venom?

No. It just means that the odds are that you will not die from a scorpion sting if you are in "good health."

That being said, nobody should underestimate medically significant scorpions. Even if it doesn't kill you, you're certainly not going to be feeling well and a trip to the E.R. isn't exactly fun either.

Is regulation, even prohibition of certain species necessary?

In my eyes, no.
Everything has its risks, you just need to be aware of what they are and you must assume that it can happen to you; otherwise you're just ignoring it.

All scorpions sting. All dogs bite. All horses kick. All guns are loaded. All politicians lie.



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thegromgrom
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 7:31 pm

Mako wrote:
I suppose you guys are right. It does seem to be that I am making a bigger stink about this then there needs to be.

It was not my intentions to stir up any problems with this thread.

Maybe when a kid gets killed by his brothers 'bada$$"scorpion, the community will look at things differently. Hasnt happened yet so who cares right?

And of course I don't know what I'm talking about because I didnt go to school or have a biology degree, and to answer your question Eddy no I have not been envenomated due to my protocols being on lock.


I've read this thread and can't imagine what's going through your head as you posted some of these things.

You called yourself a noob, and yet, were quite proud of and bragged about "getting the hottest scorps you could get your hands on" because you were taken with the novelty of their reputation and toxicity.

You then go on and on about regulating the hobby because, well, accidents happen to the untrained, which you described yourself as!

I want you to know, that is quite contradictory. Really think about that.


However, in spite of all of that, all of your posts and reasonings for the ban are for "before something happens", because "well hell, I have no rational evidence that these are some sort of problem, besides bad attempts at empathy for a faceless victim." You can say that about LITERALLY any substance, animal, or hobby on the planet. A dremel tool may cut off/severly injure someone's finger, let's ban them before that happens. Hell, a handgun CAN easily kill someone. Ban them too. In fact, the most obvious way to put what you're saying in another light, ban all antibiotics because someone can have a reaction to them as well.

I mean, how do you expect a forum full of enthusiasts and hobbyists to react to you wanting to ban their passion? If you're a troll, good game, you got me to bite finally, but man, really think about what you're saying. Because as someone who has kept many LQs, Parabuthus, Androctonus, and Hottentotta over the past couple years, you're really mistaken and barking up the wrong tree to the wrong people. You have no rational evidence to ban an entire animal specie, and you should really stop.
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Mako
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 9:32 pm

My whole issue is how easy it is to get ahold of these scorpions, thats all.

Until I reach a level in this hobby that is backed by a degree, I will remain to be a noob.

I have my opinions, you have yours. No need to sit there and give me a paragraph as to how I am this that and the other.




Regulation in my mind is a good idea. You guys have already convinced me that a ban is pointless and silly.
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Scorpion19981000
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 11:17 pm

Admin note:

Alright, this is getting a little too unfriendly for my liking.

It's nobody in particular, but let's stop the argument before it happens.

The last thing I want on this forum is an argument, which while it's not an argument yet, it's the direction this is heading. Friendly discussion and debate is perfectly acceptable. Arguments are not.



Further discussion on this thread should be about regulation; more specifically, what species to regulate and how to go about doing it.

That sound good to everyone?


Regards.

-Collin.




_________________
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~Abyss~
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 11:21 pm

Agreed bang makebetter
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Shakudo
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/5/2013, 5:26 am

Some of my opinions and thoughts:




My suggestions for regulation:

- Mainly I have concerns about the genus Buthidae, as they have the species with venom capable of serious harm and/or death in a human. This genus includes, Androctonus, Leiurus, Parabuthus etc.

- no purchase under the legal adult age, or otherwise with parental permission in person and identification.

- a certificate of origin and transfer agreement must be signed by buyer and seller.
With a clause that buyers HAVE to be aware of potential risks and have the knowledge to responsibly handle and care for the scorpion.

- Failing to do this by f.e. taking unnecessary risks involving humans and the animals resulting in either harm to the animal or human involved is punishable by fine and/or immediate removal of the animal and taken in custody of animal welfare.

- sellers must have a permit for selling Buthidae, stating they have the know how and expertise to teach and inform a potential customer how to care and fully brief them on all safety issues for both human and animal. This be checked and controlled with animal welfare and/or department of fish and game ( I believe in the USA this body regulates these sort of issues?, please forgive me If I make a mistake, I am not that well versed in foreign politics)

- online purchases should be done in the same manner digital certificates and identification necessary, fraudulence and identity theft punishable by law.


Perhaps I stated things a bit hard?

Well...

Yeah of course!

We care and love animals who remain, however bred, wild animals, which can be potentially dangerous, and even the most experienced keepers/hobbyists, who choose to take risks CAN be stung, with all dire consequences . At the moment, I think it far too easy for thrill seekers , fools, and though guys/girls, to go out and get Androctonus Australis, or Leirurus.
It is ridiculous to me to read about so called life threatening scorpions, and the person involved knew s**t about the animal they bought. That really gets my blood boiling .
I would be haopy to, and wouldn't care about filling in a form or showing I'd, or placing my signature on a transfer agreement. My local shop gave me one, for H. Paucidens, even though they have one of the least potent venom ranking scorps. They told me, JUST to be sure.
And I very much like that. To be sure and covering my [buttocks] and theirs.


Because in the end, the whining and shocked human ( surprised, really? c'mon) gets antivenom, when lucky and in time. And the scorpion, most of the time is doomed and/or demonized.

REDICOULOUS.
( sometimes my passion and hot bloodedness kicks in) Wink


Serious people should be able to care and keep their scorpions with laws and regulations in place, because they know their business, whilst not be hindered by the 10.000 video on YouTube of a kid annoying the crap out of a scorpion just to make another feeding video.



Those were my thoughts, and some suggestions....

I am interested in other opinions and suggestions for this cause,


Take care:)


Joey
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Mako
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/5/2013, 12:03 pm

I believe genus Androctonus, and genus Leiurus should be regulated.

Proof of address and age along with a signed waiver should be put in place for genus Parabuthus, Buthacus, Tityus. I can agree with parental consent with these but not with AAss and LQs

No more exports without the exporter knowing where the specimens are going and to whom they are going to.

Only registered wholesalers can buy from exporters and they can only sell to adult buyers who have to take a safety class and take a test. If they pass the test then they sign documentation that is the filed. It must be understood that a lost specimen can very well injure people around them, thus the buyer is responsible.

Glass enclosures should not be allowed for use in areas that are prone to earthquakes such as California.

If one decides to breed these animals then so be it, but understand that the same liability is passed on from the paper you signed to get the parents. It should be announced by the breeder that they are breeding and should register the animals accordingly. If they wish to sell them, that is not a problem so long as they follow the same rules and guidelines, and only sell to those who are willing to take the class, the test and sign documentation.

I would have no problem taking a safety class, and taking a test. If a fee occurs I will pay it. I will sign documentation stating that I know what I am doing and that I am aware of the concequences that may occur by collecting these animals.

I too am open to more options, My opinions are not liked by all but I feel that this is a good idea for the health of ourselves and this hobby.

Here is an example of how not regulating this may lead to harming our hobby:

Guy goes into petstore and sees "death stalker" scorpion.. he has no expierence what so ever but he is 18 years of age or older. The pet store states that it could kill him, but does not see if he is qualified to be keeping these animals. The guy goes home freaks out when he opens the deli cup and drops the scorpion, the scorpion hides and moves onto the neighbors house who has a newborn, the Child is envenomated and the kid dies. no onw knows where this scorpion came from. So the government steps in and says OK thats it no more Buthids in captivity PERIOD!. So now due to an arrogant idiot, we are no longer able to keep our beloved specimens. YES this is a worst case probaly will never happen scenario, but it is possible and we need to prepare for it.


For those of you who do not think this is a big deal, think again. This is a very big deal and effects everyoone that is involved.

Heres an idea, go ask your neighbors what they think about you keeping these animals and see if they dont get nervous at the fact that you are keeping these dangerous animals.

I for one have already made it loud and clear to my neighbors that I keep Highly venomous scorpions, and rattlesnakes. They were nervous but I showed them my precautions and that made them feel better about the situation.

Sorry if some of my spelling is off. Im pretty tense at the keyboard right now.



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Shakudo
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/5/2013, 1:29 pm

Dear Keith,

Breathe.... Smile
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Mako
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/5/2013, 2:12 pm

lol! Thanks Joey.

I have a very strongopinion on this issue, as I am sure you can all tell.
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Shakudo
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/5/2013, 2:18 pm

Mako wrote:
lol! Thanks Joey.

I have a very strongopinion on this issue, as I am sure you can all tell.

No really??? lol!

That's ok! Just take it easy:) It's just a subject of interest, we are not in parliament ourselves;)
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Mako
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/5/2013, 2:45 pm

fersure man. I get so worked up on this topic. Its been a huge issue for me since I was a kid. I shall slow my roll.

But back on the subject, What should the test be comprised of? and what kind of things should be taught in the safety course?

I think the test should be made by the best collectors/breeders in the industry...you know who you are so please make suggestions.

The safety course should be a class where you learn proper transfer technique and the whats and what nots of what to do if you happen to come across an escapee...The class should be offered to any scorpion that is purchased but is mandatory for medically significant Buthids. Once you complete the course you recieve a certificate that states that you know what you are doing. They will learn by using some kind of non lethal scorpion that is quick fiesty and not shy to sting...just so the class members can see first hand how quick these animals can be and how to properly work with them and the tools that they use to keep these animals.

Just some ideas Ive been thinking of...
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Bayss
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/5/2013, 7:31 pm

I like the education idea a lot. We are in the best position to regulate ourselves because we are better informed and experienced than any other group that could pose regulations or a ban on certain species. Learning proper techniques for transfers, useful tools in care, secies identification, first aid if you get stung, etc. We have driver's ed and hunter safety courses, right?

I'd love to see us start a thread where everyone could share their safety protocols tools, and techniques. If we use these practices with all our scorpions and pass this on to newcomers in the hobby, it could reduce the need for legislation. We already, to a degree, do this on our forum...for example, no pics or videos of inverts fighting or feeding of mice/mammals, etc. These self-imposed regulations work much better.

I really have enjoyed reading this thread. It is both entertaining and thought-provoking. Even when opinions differ and things look like it could get ugly, you all have brought it back to a mature focused discussion. Just proves again what a great forum this is for us all. Pity that all of our various national governments can't show the same class and intelligence when they debate topics.
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