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 Death stalkers

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Mako
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 2:49 pm

Alrighty, So I have come to the conclusion that certain genus of the Buthidae family should be restricted. I know the chances of a pregnant A. australis getting out and reproducing is a slim to none chance but I do feel that it is a very real possibility. Perhaps I respect these scorpions alittle too much, but after working with venomous snakes for a few years, you start to learnthat there is no such thing as "too much" respect.

A. australis and L. quinquestriatus are really the only Buthids that should require a pemit/licensing.

A. bicolor and tityus don't really need to be banned. IMO. I don't see legal action being taken on this subject anytime soon. Our system seems to be dealing with bigger issues at the moment.

Off topic:
As far as gun control is concerned, I believe a 10 round capacity and a bullet button is a fair compromise if you want to own an AR/AK platform.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 3:02 pm

Why not bicolor? I don't agree that there should be any license that allows you to keep scorpions but you could add about 70% of the Parabuthus genus to the list and probably all the Androctonus and Hemiscorpius lepturus for it's weird necrotic effect. Hottentotta venom could also give you some severe symptoms.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 3:12 pm

Never heard of an A. bicolor killing anyone. A.a's and LQ's seem to be the top tier specimens to avoid.

I agree that Parabuthus should be respected but I also do not feel that they are as medically significant like the species that were stated.

Come to think of it A. mauritanicus should be on the list as well. Perhaps even A. amoreuxi

Tityus serrulatus should be on the list but even they dont drop full grown men like LQ's or A.a.'s

IMO
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 4:16 pm

Parabuthus kills people over here every year. Size plays a big role, they inject a large amount of venom.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 4:19 pm

So if a 3/5 star Buthid can kill then why are 5/5 star Buthids not considered to be a problem in the hobby? I'm curious. I want to learn.

Also what species of Parabuthus is causing deaths?
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 4:26 pm

I don't trust that 5 level rating. P.granulatus causes deaths over here each year because they have the most potent venom of the Parabuthus and they grow to 16cm so they aren't small. P.transvaalicus and P.villosus also cause deaths now and then and both are large, reaching 15cm and 18cm respectively.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 4:30 pm

So basicly it has to do with the amount of venom that a species can inject. Ok that makes sense to me. What are your feelings on full grown A. australis? I hear the can inject quite a bit of venom. They do not reach the size of the species you have stated but I'm sure there is a reason they are considered to be the most dangerous scorpion.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 4:45 pm

so now that you narrowed it down to 2 or so species what type of regualtion do you propose and what would it accomplish?
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 4:54 pm

Mako wrote:
Tityus serrulatus should be on the list but even they dont drop full grown men like LQ's or A.a.'s

We are also making judgements based off of horror stories and exaggerated truths. Based on the sources I've scanned, Scorpions, on average, have 2.0mg of venom stored in their telson. A kilogram is roughly 2.2lbs. LD50 values, as unreliable as they can be in regards to determining relative toxicity, are our sole basis for these ill informed accusations. A "full grown" man is around 190lbs. Let's say you're right and at 0.33mg/kg Androctonus australis and Leiurus quinquestriatus can often drop full grown men based off of their relative toxicity alone and not anaphylaxis (very common with venomous arthopods).

Dimensional analysis time: 190lbs x 1kg x 0.33mg = 28.5mg of venom to drop a full grown person @ 190lbs
----------------------------------------------2.2lb----1kg---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

28.5mg, considering most of what a scorpion injects is various salts and water (skin irritant), it doesn't seem very possible that, regarding toxicity alone that a Lq or australis would drop a full grown man. This pretty much shows how blown out of proportion things have gotten regarding their toxicity. Now, I'm not saying dangerous arthopods should be thrown at children to play with, but there are definitely other things at work here that attribute to deaths such as anaphylaxis and %^*&ty conditions where the person was stung allowing them to fall victim to their environment. The most likely culprit for deaths is anaphylaxis, which similarly can happen from a bee sting. We have a tendency to base everything from snake venom, which is comprised of structurally different proteins and peptides as much as we'd like to think they are the same. Not to mention the amount purged into someone's body from a snake envenomation is in the grams, not milligrams. Now, in seeing the over generalizations you have made regarding these animals given your interest in the hobby and obvious experience, do you really think politicians out of all people are capable of make a sound decision pertaining to how these animals should be regulated? I can understand a animal being regulated if it costs thousands (not the hundreds of thousands of dollars hospitals charge) in antivenin to keep a person alive (if they even live at all) if they happen to be envenomated, but a lot of these scorpion incidents happen in areas where where the overall health of the people is poor at best and access to modern medical treatment is non existent. It is possible that it could only take a few jabs of epinephrine to keep a man from dying from a scorpion sting. I'd like to think that we are, for the most part, self educating individuals and are capable of maintaining a free though perspective even in the light of horror stories and exaggerated truths. This is my two cents, yet again.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 5:08 pm

Envyizm wrote:
Mako wrote:
Tityus serrulatus should be on the list but even they dont drop full grown men like LQ's or A.a.'s

We are also making judgements based off of horror stories and exaggerated truths. Based on the sources I've scanned, Scorpions, on average, have 2.0mg of venom stored in their telson. A kilogram is roughly 2.2lbs. LD50 values, as unreliable as they can be in regards to determining relative toxicity, are our sole basis for these ill informed accusations. A "full grown" man is around 190lbs. Let's say you're right and at 0.33mg/kg Androctonus australis and Leiurus quinquestriatus can often drop full grown men based off of their relative toxicity alone and not anaphylaxis (very common with venomous arthopods).

Dimensional analysis time: 190lbs x 1kg x 0.33mg = 28.5mg of venom to drop a full grown person @ 190lbs
----------------------------------------------2.2lb----1kg---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

28.5mg, considering most of what a scorpion injects is various salts and water (skin irritant), it doesn't seem very possible that, regarding toxicity alone that a Lq or australis would drop a full grown man. This pretty much shows how blown out of proportion things have gotten regarding their toxicity. Now, I'm not saying dangerous arthopods should be thrown at children to play with, but there are definitely other things at work here that attribute to deaths such as anaphylaxis and %^*&ty conditions where the person was stung allowing them to fall victim to their environment. The most likely culprit for deaths is anaphylaxis, which similarly can happen from a bee sting. We have a tendency to base everything from snake venom, which is comprised of structurally different proteins and peptides as much as we'd like to think they are the same. Not to mention the amount purged into someone's body from a snake envenomation is in the grams, not milligrams. Now, in seeing the over generalizations you have made regarding these animals given your interest in the hobby and obvious experience, do you really think politicians out of all people are capable of make a sound decision pertaining to how these animals should be regulated? I can understand a animal being regulated if it costs thousands (not the hundreds of thousands of dollars hospitals charge) in antivenin to keep a person alive (if they even live at all) if they happen to be envenomated, but a lot of these scorpion incidents happen in areas where where the overall health of the people is poor at best and access to modern medical treatment is non existent. It is possible that it could only take a few jabs of epinephrine to keep a man from dying from a scorpion sting. I'd like to think that we are, for the most part, self educating individuals and are capable of maintaining a free though perspective even in the light of horror stories and exaggerated truths. This is my two cents, yet again.
Moral of the story:
It's always best to consider everything before making a stance on an issue.

Wow sir those are impressive calculations. Probably a good idea to mention that you work in chemistry so youíre probably the best authority for this information, at least in this forum.
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Envyizm
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 5:27 pm

~Abyss~ wrote:
Wow sir those are impressive calculations. Probably a good idea to mention that you work in chemistry so youíre probably the best authority for this information, at least in this forum.

I'd like to think so, but not even venom researchers truly know the full extent of the effects or the after effects of envenomations. There are some people who have health problems much later, either related or unrelated, to the venom. Really, all these figures illustrate is how blown out of proportion these so called figures are and the basis for calling something lethal versus labeling equally as lethal animals as benign. This, by no means is a method to downplay the dangers these guys pose with their venom, but it does give some perspective as to how deadly these guys really are and what types of things have been exaggerated or have been viewed improperly. I just don't think, given all the data that science has collected over the years, that politicians, given their educational background, are equipped for sorting through all of that information and coming to a conclusion that logically sound. Also, keep in mind that these figures are based off a person's body weight in mice or rats (what they use to test LD50), so the effects of the venom increase exponentially as the weight of the person decreases. Elderly and children have always been more susceptible to death from envenomation and, in reality, make up a good number of the fatalities from scorpion and spider envenomation.

As a disclaimer: I am by no means combating one over generalization with another. Scorpions with high toxicity are definitely dangerous, but to be regulated as snakes are or worse is just not practical.
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Mako
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 6:31 pm





This sounds great in theory but the fact remains that we have no biological recording of what scorpion venom/salts/water/protiens can do to a healthy human being.

The question is, what do we consider as a healthy human being. Come to think of it we are all lesser then our ancestors (genetically speaking)
190lbs does not discribe a well bodied man. As I am sure you know.

Eddy:

I think that LQ's and Andros should be banned from the united states. I know you all think I am crazy for thinking this but until we have more documented data we have no way to say forsure whether or not if these species are a life threating aspect.

My collection consists of:

L. quinquestriatus x4
A. australis x2
B. arenicola x1

they are nothing more then a arachnids. I don't care about keeping them and I certainly do not care about keeping them in captivity. i keeps venomous snakes, scorpions are a joke compared to them. If I have to surrender my collection then so be it.

Please retort I am very much enjoying this debate.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 6:35 pm

[quote="Envyizm"]
~Abyss~ wrote:
\As a disclaimer: I am by no means combating one over generalization with another. Scorpions with high toxicity are definitely dangerous, but to be regulated as snakes are or worse is just not practical.

Agreed.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 6:59 pm

Well I would like to know what differnce it would make if we were to institute a ban. I've already presented you with my data, and these scorpions have been in the hobby for decades. Do you think we would have less than .3 deaths a year if we ban these species? Arachnoboards has a very good list of sting reports from hobbiest and no deaths. So logically it's anti-productive to ban something because of the lack of information. Bans should be issued based on sound data. A ban like that reminds me of Pitt Bull bans. The fact that most reported dog attacks are called pitbull attacks has lead cities to institue bans on a specific breed of dog. When you really look at the data theres no science that says that pitts are more dangerous than other breeds. Similar situation here, we can't issue legal changes based on misconception of "lethal" scorpions.
On a side note I for one do care about my scorpions with a passion(maybe I'm a scorp nut). To you they might just be arachnids, just a bug. They have fasinated me since I was a child and I for one will not surrender my species as I KNOW they do not pose a threat in my hands. Hypothetically speaking, if those scorpions were to become illegal I would most likely become a criminal, which poses another question. What would be my punishment if caught? And what measures will be taken to prevent me from owning those illegal scorpions?
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 7:37 pm

We cant figure out how deadly these scorpions are until we have a basis for what is "healthy" and how these protiens effect healthy cells.

I seriously do not need a basis for as to why I need to feel that these scorpions should be ban. I have instincts and my insticts tell me that it is bad news.

I collect the scorpions that I feel should be ban. And I still think they should not be here. (U.S.A.)

Do I feel that collectors who want to collect top tier specimens should have to pay 5000 for a permit? F&%k NO! But I do feel that the lossness" of our actions may or may not cause a rift in this hobby.

There are members on this site that are very very expierenced. As a a matter of fact, there are a couple members on this site that are not only younger then me, but are way more qualified to be keeping these animals.
I still believe that they should have permits. It makes us look so much more serious about our craft.

I grow weed, It is legal at a state level, it is illegal to grow at a federal level. Do I stop growing? No. If you want to collect then, collect. Make a difference.
Every hot collector knows damn well that it is a bit of an addiction. I am willing to compromise by collecting other types of scorpions. I Don't need an LQ to state that I am a serious collector
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 7:41 pm

We need to make a test for all serious Buthid collectors. Kind of like an OSHA permit when working with needles and the like...

We should take the best collectors in the buisness and have them create a test.

If you can pass the test then cool pay 50-100 dollars and you got the permit. The money can go to whatever we think is right. If we got to the law before they come to us, then they will see what we say is in some way valid.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 8:09 pm

Mako wrote:
So basicly it has to do with the amount of venom that a species can inject. Ok that makes sense to me. What are your feelings on full grown A. australis? I hear the can inject quite a bit of venom. They do not reach the size of the species you have stated but I'm sure there is a reason they are considered to be the most dangerous scorpion.

A. australis is considered to be the "most dangerous" scorpion because it kills more people a year on average than any other species. LQs are considered to be more toxic, but kill less people so they're not considered as "dangerous."


As for venom toxicity in general...everyone should keep in mind that the LD50 values are most commonly based off of mice, and are not necessarily accurate for determining the toxicity of the venom on humans. (Tarantulas are a good example of that.) Keep in mind that that venom can effect everyone differently. Some people may naturally be more resistant, or more sensitive to venom than "average."

Can an adult human in good health be killed by a scorpion?
Yes.
Is it likely?
No, not really. As Envyizm said, most deaths occur in young children, the elderly, or those with weakened immune systems. Scorpions just typically don't inject enough venom to kill healthy adults. However, that's not to say that it doesn't occasionally happen, it does.

By the way, everyone who hasn't should read: http://www.ntnu.no/ub/scorpion-files/medicallist.php

So in short the genera contain medically significant species are Androctonus, Buthus, Centruroides, Hottentotta, Leiurus, Mesobuthus, Parabuthus, Rhopalurus, and Tityus. There are two non-buthid species that are medically significant. These are Hemiscorpius lepturus (venom has a strong necrotic effect) and Nebo hierochonticus. The venom of the latter has reportedly caused hemorrhaging and necrosis in mice. . . however, the effects of the sting of this species on humans may be totally negligible.
This article also has some good information on scorpion venom: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9sTPT-GM8v6Sno2bmZscEoyc3c/edit

And Keith, might I ask why you feel that only two species are worthy of being banned if there are about 25 that have caused mortalities? Just wondering as that doesn't make much sense to me.

However, that being said, saying that any species of scorpion should be banned is downright ludicrous is my eyes.


And Keith, I'm with Eddy on this one. I DO care about scorpions. Heck, I prefer the company of them over most people by several orders of magnitude.

As for people having to pass some sort of test...I'm open to the possibility. Heck, if people have to pass a test to have a ham radio license, why not have the equivalent for highly toxic inverts. However, it should be FREE, unlike the DWA bullcrap.

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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/28/2013, 11:25 pm

I don't mean to intrude on a friendly debate....but I will anyways.

Keith, I totally get where you're coming from. Andro's and LQ's are HIGHLY toxic and don't belong to irresponsible individuals or scorpion noobs such as myself (although in my defense, I would take every precaution there is if I had one. Including long feeding tongs, plastic terrarium, thick-hard rubber gloves etc etc.). However, sellers do say you must be 18+ to buy them, so you are technically an adult and within your rights to purchase. I for one, disagree with the idea of banning certain scorpions in the US or having to pay to even own them. Simply because you're already paying a lot of money for the scorpion itself, so why pay for the license too? If some (insert two random nouns to make an insult here) decides to buy one of these highly venomous creatures and decides it's a good idea to stick his hand in their or even HOLD it and gets stung, then that's literally their funeral. But not everyone is that irresponsible, and I agree with envyzim that the toxicity of these species shouldn't be the only novelty. There are so much we can learn from them, they aren't just the worlds most venomous scorpions, they're living beings, and deserve respect that all living things should have. Plus he worded my stance thoroughly to the point where I didn't have to give you my sentiments. But I thought that seeing as you three gentlemen are all adults, you would appreciate the opinions from a minor, who is almost 17.

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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/29/2013, 1:30 am

It is truly amazing as to how loose you guys are with how powerful these arachnis are to a normal healthy human body.

If you guys were to be envenomated by a full grown LQ/Andro I guarantee you would all be singinga different tune.

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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/29/2013, 2:28 am

Mako wrote:
It is truly amazing as to how loose you guys are with how powerful these arachnis are to a normal healthy human body.

If you guys were to be envenomated by a full grown LQ/Andro I guarantee you would all be singinga different tune.


I can assure you I wouldn't. Have you been tagged by any of these? I don't think anyone here is loose about anything I think it's the opposite, your views on how powerful these scorpions are is exaggerated. I won't deny that they deserve respect. I'm just arguing that they don't deserve to be banned. I enjoy this debate but Keith everyone who is making a valid point is using logic and data. Your arguing that these scorpions are ban worthy but haven't provided us with any data or information as to why? Or how? Or how it would be enforced and what kind of consequences would there be for breaking the law. I'm willing to compromise and take Collin's route of testing potential owners but even that would be difficult to regulate.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   3/29/2013, 4:16 am

If you think about it rationally, the chances of getting stung by a captive scorpion is next to none if you use the correct tools, enclosure and a competent mind. Most sting reports I have seen are on the hand, why? Usually because people put their hands where they don't belong.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 1:41 pm

I suppose you guys are right. It does seem to be that I am making a bigger stink about this then there needs to be.

It was not my intentions to stir up any problems with this thread.

Maybe when a kid gets killed by his brothers 'bada$$"scorpion, the community will look at things differently. Hasnt happened yet so who cares right?

And of course I don't know what I'm talking about because I didnt go to school or have a biology degree, and to answer your question Eddy no I have not been envenomated due to my protocols being on lock.



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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 2:02 pm

I would like to add that the deaths over here in South Africa concerning Parabuthus envenomation is mostly because of our poor healthcare system. Coupled with the fact that the rural settlements where the incidents usually occur have aweful living standards and the occupants are already suffering from some ailment or their immune system is not as strong as it should be because of said living conditions and poor diet.
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 2:15 pm

Same goes for Tityus sp in Mexico, Brazil etc..

I'm gunna ask someone who has served in the U.S. military over seas and see if he knows anything about how they react to envenomations from LQs and AAs
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PostSubject: Re: Death stalkers   4/4/2013, 2:54 pm

shadowfoot wrote:
If you think about it rationally, the chances of getting stung by a captive scorpion is next to none if you use the correct tools, enclosure and a competent mind. Most sting reports I have seen are on the hand, why? Usually because people put their hands where they don't belong.

I agree.

You know, beforehand, if you choose to handle or place your hands within a striking distance of a scorpion or T or whatever, there is a chance that you can be stung. It's a risk you either choose to take or not.
Further more I think highly venomous scorpions shouldn't not be sold to minors and when sold, people should be made aware of the risks and for once, don't place the well being of the animal on the bottom of the list. Make sure, someone KNOWS what is bought.

Example:

I acquired a scorpion years ago, it was presented to me by an acquaintance of mine, who labeled it as Heterometrus Spinifer.
I was happy to have some experience because I immediately saw this scorpion was NOT H. Spinifer.

And I suspected the animal was a highly venomous scorp.

I nevertheless accepted the animal, knowing the risks, and later found out it was Androctonus Australis, my late Obi, who died a few months ago, and still miss very much.

I was never stung, because I knew how to treat the animal, also I was always aware, that even when taking the water dish out, it might run and sting. I choose to do that. I knew the risk was small, but there. I am happy it never happened, now fully comprehending the toxic and character of these animals I would never place my hands near an invisible scorpion again.
It is quite naive to think, "ahw, get real it won't sting".... That would be a b.... to remember at the E.R.


So I have zero understanding for those people who take the risks, knowing what they do, and what could happen, and then whining about stings and being tough guys on YouTube. That's no hobbyist, that's being a fool.


My point?

If the under educated scorp novice or buyer or whatever laughs at a sting. He/she might also laugh at the second sting, which might be of A. Australis or L. Quinquestriatus.

People are sometimes impulsive and that recklessness and lack of knowledge, either willing ignorance or not, can make the difference between an ice pack for the swelling. Or at the E.R. on life support.

For the experienced hobbyist, thrill seekers and reckless fools make it harder and harder to come by our beloved scorpions, that's why I think regulation should be in place, not prohibition.


Those where some thoughts I wanted to share.

Keep on discussing, I think this is a very interesting thread Keith!



Take care bro,



Joey


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