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 [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth

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The-New-Guy
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PostSubject: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/16/2012, 9:38 am

First off im Sorry about all the writting just sort of all came out as i was typing but would appreciate if you guys read what ive wrote and reply, thanks alot!!

Havent been on here in about a year, last topic i did was when she last gave birth and lost them all due to what i could only say was bad molts due to dry substrate, but am not willing to make the same mistake twice.

Let me start over by saying the pair had been together since late 2008 and now the male is deceased, i found him at the start of this year (i think) with one of his legs pretty muched ripped off and had no idea if it was his fault, or maybe hers or mine? But thats another story anyway.

I found her looking pretty chubby a few days ago, poured some water over the substrate to give it that bit extra, but found a problem, she had dug right down to the glass in her hide (quite a way down) and so i put more substrate in by her hide and flattened it back down, came in last night looked down there and could see little one coming out the bottom of her, and her holding it in towards her with her front legs (couldnt get a good picture Sad ) and some already on her back, but only problem is shes dug down to the glass again! i dont know how bad this is, but i know its not great news, but not alot i can do now without freaking her out right?

Other than my last experience over a year ago when all the babies were lost i have never been through this before, and obviously last time didnt get too far progress wise, but actually managed to look up the same thread from that time and got some good tips back into my head.

Looking at the other thread i saw someone say it was to personnal preferance whether to leave them with mother, put in communal or seperate, i think id rather do communal as i think it would be easier for me to keep an eye on and due to lack of room, got a couple of spare tanks around, but would this mean i would have to have lots of small seperate hides or would they choose to hide together?

Also for water source i was told that bottle lids was a good idea, in communal how many would i need or just one? i keep my room pretty hot cause all the heatmats in there the water drys out in bowls fairly quickly most of the time needing refill's daily.

I will try get pics up as soon as she and the crew are out and about in the tank, and also any new advice or corrections to what ive wrote are much appreciated, thanks alot.


Last edited by GS on 9/18/2012, 12:04 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updated Title)
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/17/2012, 5:04 am

The-New-Guy wrote:
I found her looking pretty chubby a few days ago, poured some water over the substrate to give it that bit extra, but found a problem, she had dug right down to the glass in her hide (quite a way down) and so i put more substrate in by her hide and flattened it back down, came in last night looked down there and could see little one coming out the bottom of her, and her holding it in towards her with her front legs (couldnt get a good picture Sad ) and some already on her back, but only problem is shes dug down to the glass again! i dont know how bad this is, but i know its not great news, but not alot i can do now without freaking her out right?
To avoid stressing the scorpion mom out, you should avoid any disturbance to her of any sort.
Since you have gotten the temperature under control, ensure the substrate is well dampen would suffice.

The-New-Guy wrote:
Looking at the other thread i saw someone say it was to personnal preferance whether to leave them with mother, put in communal or seperate, i think id rather do communal as i think it would be easier for me to keep an eye on and due to lack of room, got a couple of spare tanks around, but would this mean i would have to have lots of small seperate hides or would they choose to hide together?
In my opinion, separate individual hides are more suited as a precaution alternative when housing adult scorpions (from different parents), reason being, at the stage of sexual maturity. Territorial aggression is likely to be prominent, and if there is a pair or multiple adult males within the group, separate hides would be ideal for retreating scorpions.

In your scenario, things are simple. Offer several large pieces of flat slate or bark pieces(my preference due to it's light weight) and a colony of scorplings such as your Pandinus imperator's brood would often huddle closely together, sharing hides/ burrows.

The-New-Guy wrote:
Also for water source i was told that bottle lids was a good idea, in communal how many would i need or just one? i keep my room pretty hot cause all the heatmats in there the water drys out in bowls fairly quickly most of the time needing refill's daily.
Bottle caps would be a safer choice, but i would put at least three to four of them at different location of the enclosure.
To save time, you may offer a large but shallow water dish filled with pebbles. You can probably add some inclining barks in and along the water dish which allows scorplings to climb out easily Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/17/2012, 12:17 pm

Ok thanks this is all a great help, also i have some more questions if that's alright;

How long do should i have before they leave her back, i think last time it was after about 10 days they started to leave to molt? But cannot be 100%

Also how big of an enclosure should i be looking at putting them all in? I have one that measures at 370 x 220 x 250 mm and a bigger one at 460 x 300 x 170 mm, im just not sure how much room would be enough and i cant be sure how many there's gonna be yet either lol

And lastly because i want to take them all and put them in there own setup how will i know when to do so? i don't want to leave it too early or too late (if that's possible)

Thanks again
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/18/2012, 11:22 am

Some pics the best i can get as she isn't out her hide yet.

Also it looks like she can't really get out either with the load on her back without crushing them against the hide? Not sure if this is a problem or she will work it out and just dig some substrate out the way? You can see by pics:

Click here to view:
 


Last edited by GS on 7/19/2012, 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added spoiler container for pictures)
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/18/2012, 1:32 pm

And can anyone help with the questions above the pictures? Would be a great help

Need to know what size enclosure i should use out of the 2 i have available, and when i should take the babies out of the mothers enclosure? And more importantly how?

And also when should I offer food? Should it be now for mother to kill or be pre killed or wait till after 1st molt?

Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/19/2012, 12:40 am

The-New-Guy wrote:
How long do should i have before they leave her back, i think last time it was after about 10 days they started to leave to molt? But cannot be 100%
The-New-Guy wrote:

And also when should I offer food? Should it be now for mother to kill or be pre killed or wait till after 1st molt?

Answers found in >> [ASA] Forest Scorpions' Caresheet

The-New-Guy wrote:

Also how big of an enclosure should i be looking at putting them all in? I have one that measures at 370 x 220 x 250 mm and a bigger one at 460 x 300 x 170 mm, im just not sure how much room would be enough and i cant be sure how many there's gonna be yet either lol
It really depends on how much space you can spare in your "scorpion room", floor space is more important than height. I posted recently that i simply uses the largest faunarium:


Image source: http://www.exo-terra.com/images/shared/products/faunarium_set.jpg

I manage to raise groups of about 20-22 in PT-2310, all the way from 3-4.instar to adulthood. It's amazing how they can tolerate each other and often huddle together under the same hide.

As mentioned in my forest caresheet:

Communal or Non-communal:
 

The-New-Guy wrote:
And lastly because i want to take them all and put them in there own setup how will i know when to do so? i don't want to leave it too early or too late (if that's possible)
Once they dismount from mom's back naturally on their own accord, you can proceed with the rehousing if you wish.

The-New-Guy wrote:
Also it looks like she can't really get out either with the load on her back without crushing them against the hide? Not sure if this is a problem or she will work it out and just dig some substrate out the way?

Not a problem. She will work things out. She probably place herself in that position for greater sense of security. No action on your part required.

The-New-Guy wrote:
Need to know what size enclosure i should use out of the 2 i have available, and when i should take the babies out of the mothers enclosure? And more importantly how?

[HOW TO] Correctly handle a scorpion

or this is how i do it. Shift the adult female over first if you intent to house her communally with her scorplings.




Last edited by **GS** on 3/14/2013, 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updated)
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/19/2012, 9:09 am

Ok thanks this is a great help, I actually have one of those PT-2310's spare so can put it to good use.

After watching that video aswell has made me think maybe to have them all together (mother included) in which case i have another question:

How long would she tolerate them for? Would it be forever or would her attitude
Towards them change after a certain time?

And a completely random question that's come into my head, say if the babies were separated and came back into contact again for example when adults, would they remember eachother?
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/19/2012, 11:15 am

The-New-Guy wrote:
Ok thanks this is a great help, I actually have one of those PT-2310's spare so can put it to good use.
That's great Smile
It's always good to ultilise existing "resource" (e.g. that unused flower pot in your garden, break it and it becomes your scorpion's hide)

The-New-Guy wrote:
How long would she tolerate them for? Would it be forever or would her attitude
Towards them change after a certain time?
I can't speak for all forest scorpions but in my opinion, if you got all the conditions ideal (space/moisture/food/hide etc) the possible time the adult female could get "agitated" or hostile with her kids is when she's gravid and about to give another brood.

For my colony, I have the scorplings grew from 2.instar all the way till adulthood, and mated with her scorpion mom.

The-New-Guy wrote:
And a completely random question that's come into my head, say if the babies were separated and came back into contact again for example when adults, would they remember each other?
Can't conclude on the memory thingy yet but i would say if a specimen has been staying communally in a family group, he/she establishes tolerance of close interaction with another scorpion (of the same family), desire for territorial dominance could be minimal.

For example, if you have two groups of of 20 (from a single parent) separated from birth and if you rejoin them in a separate new and large tank with conditions ideal (space/moisture/food/hide etc) after they attained adu,thood, most likely they'll do just fine communally with no issue. It could just be some minor scuffling or even a mass orgy if slates were provided Smile


Last edited by **GS** on 3/15/2013, 1:59 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Updated)
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/19/2012, 2:48 pm

In that case then im tempted to keep them all with her, and might try that approach instead.

Have just been down to a local shop to get some more cocoa fiber bricks and found that they don't have any, and all they had was this so i picked up 2x 5 litre bags of it



Which you might be able to read on the front "Created to meet the needs of spiders and scorpions originating from humid habitats" which is fine as far as i can read, but i don't understand what all the little bits in it are as i never have anything like that from cocoa fibre, but maybe just something to help hold moisture? Not sure, can see in pic



But unless instructed otherwise this is what i will put in the bigger tank to move them all over when ready, but feel confident now as to what i am doing solely down to you GS so a big thanks, but might have more questions for you soon but hopefully not take up too much of your time lol.

On the plus side I managed to grab a half decent picture of the mother as she was more outwards of her hide, but now has fully retreated to the back when i was asleep, thanks again

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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/19/2012, 3:00 pm

The-New-Guy wrote:
but i don't understand what all the little bits in it are as i never have anything like that from cocoa fibre, but maybe just something to help hold moisture? Not sure, can see in pic
I'm not sure if it's the same but i have come across substrate mixtures which contains tiny pale creamy "wood-like" chips fragments. The purpose is for increasing moisture retention.

The-New-Guy wrote:
But unless instructed otherwise this is what i will put in the bigger tank to move them all over when ready, but feel confident now as to what i am doing solely down to you GS so a big thanks, but might have more questions for you soon but hopefully not take up too much of your time lol.
Not at all. I'm glad to help. Shoot your questions, we have many experience keepers here who can share their experience as well. You're doing good. Keep the updates coming Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/19/2012, 3:13 pm

The lighter colored "bits" in the substrate are probably vermiculite.

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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/21/2012, 7:29 pm

Beautiful slings!

PS: I love you GS
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/21/2012, 8:21 pm

Ramenuzumaki wrote:
I love you GS
Shocked





Debating resurrecting the O.O.C.Q thread........ Wink

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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/22/2012, 2:09 am

do it Razz
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/22/2012, 1:16 pm

Ramenuzumaki wrote:
do it Razz
GS beat me to it. lol!

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PostSubject: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth    7/27/2012, 6:58 am

Update: saw some get off mothers back last night, so molts very soon I'm guessing, funny thing I saw one crawl off her back leg and just SPRINT off into the back of the hide, can't see him but I'm sure he's fine lol


Last edited by GS on 9/18/2012, 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updated Title.)
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/28/2012, 5:55 am

It's great to hear that the kids are doing well. Keep up the good work and do post some pics update, when the time is right for you of course Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/28/2012, 12:20 pm

Just checked and looks like successful molts all round although I can't be 100%, no longer on back, there all hiding behind her at the back of the hide, I can't count how many but looks good, can't get a clear picture but I'm guessing they've molted as there all actually glowing now under my handheld blacklight.

Will keep updated
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/30/2012, 12:03 pm

They are still at the back of the hide behind her all bunched up in one corner, am wondering if I should be trying to feed them now they have dismounted although they are still in hide?

One nearly wondered out yesterday but turned round at the end, reading over the ASA caresheet you linked says they will eat a few days after molt which should be around now I guess but thought I should just make sure, so might offer some pre killed at the edge of hide and see how it goes, hope that's all correct lol

Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/30/2012, 12:53 pm

The scorplings usually start feeding 4-7 days after they have dismounted from mom's back.

Yes, it's about time for some mass feeding Smile

You may throw in adult crickets but make sure that they are incapacitated.

The scorpion mom would probably tear them up for her babies or you may also witness a bunch of scorplings dismembering a single large cricket.



Last edited by GS on 7/31/2012, 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/30/2012, 1:46 pm

Ok thanks will try that tomorrow and let you know how it goes, have just got some photos of mum and a little one both at edge of hide under darklight so will post that tomorrow too, thanks again
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/31/2012, 7:19 am

Short update: will be feeding in about 4 hours but now I have 0 visibility on any of the babies, which I found interesting, but have found a couple of VERY small holes going down into the substrate, and I mean about 2mm holes so difficult to spot, so there definatly in there somewhere but still am not sure how many there are or where they are

I am really gonna have to be careful now when trying to swap them over to the other enclosure, gonna have to dig through the substrate very carefully trying not to miss any or hurt any, so abit nervous but hoping I can manage it,

Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/31/2012, 2:28 pm

Sorry for long post, but hoping you guys have the time to read and point out and errors or any more advice, thanks

Ok so there all happily together now, lets start from the beginning of my day so far:

After looking around the substrate and finding holes everywhere (that actually didn't contain anything) i figured they must all be in the back of that hide somewhere, so before lifting it off i shined my portable dark light down there and saw signs of life, here's some pics:








So then was when i got prepared and lifted up the hide and saw this (sorry for quality taken on iphone):







The picture above is obviously the mother, and after some help from me i've managed to clean her back up better than what is was but still some on there im not too worried about, im guessing will just come off naturally?

And then as i began to move them i moved the mother first into the new enclosure and about 4 little ones, and then this happened:



Which panicked me and her, it was stuck in there pretty good, but after some help from me managed to get it out and as far as i can tell is just fine!

She then once i managed to help her out made another great escape up and out, and then i decided to quarantine her in a separate tub until i had finished.

This is when i decided i didn't want to use that enclosure as i don't want another incident like that again, so i decided i would move the rest of the babies over and then clean out the old tank and put fresh substrate in and put them back in.

I then began working again to transfer the rest of the little ones over and it was not easy, they wanted to play hide and seek and just started digging like mad into the substrate, here's some more pics:








Watching the video i was linked about how to handle scorpions correctly i decided to go with just using my tweezers to gently nudge them into a container, just purely because i didn't feel comfortable with picking them up by the tail as the video showed.

And then this one had other ideas after deciding to crawl up my tweezers, in which i then just put the tweezers down on the substrate and tried to nudge him off gently with a cotton bud, and then he lost interest in the tweezers so just took the cotton bud

And yet again gonna apologize for poor quality









And that was it for drama, all went pretty smoothly, managed to get them all over back into original and re-arranged enclosure easily enough, after near enough memorizing how to feed young scorpions caresheet also linked to me i headcrushed about 5 crickets and left "cricket drumsticks" i believe the term used was, from them nearby, im not sure if this was enough or too little, guess ill need someone else to help me on that?

and also you will see by pics below i took deep water bowl out and have replaced with one of the exo-terra flat bowls that are really shallow but wide, im hoping this is also suitable

Mum has taken one cricket and feeding at least 1 scorpling with it aswell as herself, one cricket actually has disappeared so i have no idea where they've taken him, and some others are starting to go aswell, more pics:
















And that's it! I'm hoping ive covered everything and that's all suitable, you guys have been a great help, oh and the total headcount in the end was 17, thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/31/2012, 5:26 pm

Congrats on that and great pics!

That's a good sized brood too. To me it looks like you've got everything under control.

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PostSubject: Re: [Case Study] Emperor Scorpion given birth   7/31/2012, 7:18 pm

Congrats!

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