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 Unknown Heterometrus

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Kasapub
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PostSubject: Unknown Heterometrus   4/11/2012, 8:12 pm

Hi, i am new here and also new in a scorpion world
I need someone to identify my heterometrus, i think its a male, so i can find right female for him in a few days Smile
here are the pictures:




i hope these pictures are good to identfy him Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/11/2012, 10:24 pm

In order to get a good identification and sex of this Heterometrus sp. you'll need to post 3 things:
-A good macro shot of the carapace (Head)
-A good macro shot of the claws
-A good macro shot of the patella on the pedipalps (segment that connects to the claws)

From what I can see thus far, it looks to be a Heterometrus spinifer female due to two things I could notice from the pictures.
-There looks to be a spur on the patella, which is a good way to i.d spinifer from the only other species that is nearly identical, H. petersii
-As far as gender is concerned, there doesn't appear to be a pronounced notch on the tarsus of your specimen.

However, my judgement may not be accurate due to the quality of the pictures.
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/11/2012, 10:42 pm

I'd also say H. spinifer.
But, as Envyizm said, clear pics of the chela and carapace are needed to be completely sure. The pics should be clear enough so that we can see the granulation on the carapace and chela.

Also, here is a review of the genus Heterometrus: http://www.science.marshall.edu/fet/euscorpius/p2004_15.pdf
And here is an ID key that shows the granulation patterns for some common Heterometrus species: Heterometrus ID key.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/12/2012, 6:20 am

can these photos help a little bit?





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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/12/2012, 6:43 pm

Yep, it's an H. spinifer.

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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/12/2012, 7:17 pm

can you see if it is a male or female?
it is about 7 cm long
and is it mature?
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/12/2012, 9:44 pm

7 cm is slightly less than 3 inches, so at that size, I doubt is mature. Are you sure you are measuring it correctly? Scorpions are measured from the chelicerae to the tip of the telson.

If you post a pic of the pectines and operculum, we can try to sex it for you. It's easier to sex adult scorpions though.

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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/15/2012, 6:19 pm

Can you sex it?






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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/15/2012, 6:24 pm

i did some measuring and it is about 10 cm, not 7 Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/15/2012, 7:01 pm

It's an adult and It's a male.

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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/15/2012, 7:02 pm

thanks a lot Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/15/2012, 7:21 pm

No problem. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/16/2012, 3:31 am

Scorpion19981000 wrote:
Yep, it's an H. spinifer.

Pardon me Scorpion19981000, I'm not trying to contend with your diagnosis but, I've kept both species before and would just like share my thoughts on the the differences between the two species.

These are specimens I have kept before, the H. petersii was store-purchased but the H. spinifer was collected from Cameron Highlands

One visible comparison in these photopraphs is the shape and proportion of the pedipalp segments. In H. spinifer the dorsal aspect of the femur is largely concaved with a defined margin or carinae outlining it's shape, while in H. petersii this somewhat convexed. The prosoma of H. spinifer is geneally more boxier and less granulate than H. spinifer. Another differences is the color of the telson which is uniformly black in H. petersii but may be dark reddish brown in H. spinifer.

I've made many previous arguments of H. spinifer being H. petersii to the same effect, so to avoid bias I'm not going to confirm one way or the other... but I'm leaning towards H. petersii. Question

In anycase you were spot on about it being a mature male. Very Happy H. petersii males have the pronounced tooth on the movable index of the chela, which is not prominent in H. spinifer

Cheers and best regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/16/2012, 5:34 am

LXDNG79 wrote:
Scorpion19981000 wrote:
Yep, it's an H. spinifer.

Pardon me Scorpion19981000, I'm not trying to contend with your diagnosis but, I've kept both species before and would just like share my thoughts on the the differences between the two species.

These are specimens I have kept before, the H. petersii was store-purchased but the H. spinifer was collected from Cameron Highlands

One visible comparison in these photopraphs is the shape and proportion of the pedipalp segments. In H. spinifer the dorsal aspect of the femur is largely concaved with a defined margin or carinae outlining it's shape, while in H. petersii this somewhat convexed. The prosoma of H. spinifer is geneally more boxier and less granulate than H. spinifer. Another differences is the color of the telson which is uniformly black in H. petersii but may be dark reddish brown in H. spinifer.

I've made many previous arguments of H. spinifer being H. petersii to the same effect, so to avoid bias I'm not going to confirm one way or the other... but I'm leaning towards H. petersii. Question

In anycase you were spot on about it being a mature male. Very Happy H. petersii males have the pronounced tooth on the movable index of the chela, which is not prominent in H. spinifer

Cheers and best regards.

+1 for sifu..

make sure the humidity is bout 80-90%, kasapub
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/16/2012, 7:39 am

LXDNG79 wrote:
Scorpion19981000 wrote:
Yep, it's an H. spinifer.

Pardon me Scorpion19981000, I'm not trying to contend with your diagnosis but, I've kept both species before and would just like share my thoughts on the the differences between the two species.
Cheers and best regards.
No problem. Smile If I made a mistake, I prefer it when people correct me. I'm still leaning towards H. spinifer though.

LXDNG79 wrote:
I've made many previous arguments of H. spinifer being H. petersii to the same effect, so to avoid bias I'm not going to confirm one way or the other... but I'm leaning towards H. petersii. Question
I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to explain my reasoning. Smile I may have been a little too quick in my assumption that it is an H. spinifer, but I still think that's what it is.
But, let me explain my reasoning. The reasons I'm thinking it's an H. spinifer is that I can see a spur on the patella, which I believe is not present on H. petersii. While it's not as common, some H. spinifer do have black telsons. Also, from the pic below, the granulation pattern looks closer to that of H. spinifer. (But it's hard to tell from the pic, and the granulation patterns on the carapace between the two species can look quite similar.)
Kasapub wrote:



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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/17/2012, 9:45 am

Scorpion19981000 wrote:
The reasons I'm thinking it's an H. spinifer is that I can see a spur on the patella, which I believe is not present on H. petersii. While it's not as common, some H. spinifer do have black telsons. Also, from the pic below, the granulation pattern looks closer to that of H. spinifer. (But it's hard to tell from the pic, and the granulation patterns on the carapace between the two species can look quite similar.)

Very Happy I agree with you're reasoning that (1) older specimens of H. spinifer have darkened telsons to the affect it may look black especially in photographs and (2) Granulation patterns between the two species are ambiguously variable.

But as for the 'spur' on the patella, which I'm guessing you mean the pronounced internal tubercle; is actually present in both species according to Kovarik 2004.

In anycase, from what I understand it's very debatable even among published Arachnologist. Rolling Eyes

Best regards Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/17/2012, 7:09 pm

LXDNG79 wrote:
But as for the 'spur' on the patella, which I'm guessing you mean the pronounced internal tubercle; is actually present in both species according to Kovarik 2004.
Yes, I mean the internal tubercle.
However, Iím afraid youíre mistaken about the Kovarik 2004 article stating that both species have an internal tubercle.
Kovarik 2004,---H. petersii:
 

Regards. Smile

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Last edited by Scorpion19981000 on 4/25/2012, 5:33 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Pics could not be viewed.)
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/18/2012, 9:25 am

Scorpion19981000 wrote:
LXDNG79 wrote:
But as for the 'spur' on the patella, which I'm guessing you mean the pronounced internal tubercle; is actually present in both species according to Kovarik 2004.
Yes, I mean the internal tubercle.
However, Iím afraid youíre mistaken about the Kovarik 2004 article stating that both species have an internal tubercle.
Kovarik 2004,---H. petersii:
 

Regards. Smile

Ok, after a re-read of the material, my mistake I stand corrected, but I don't see a pronounced internal tubercle on the specimen in the photograph. I'm still leaning towards H. petersii because the enlarged tibial tooth of the chela as marked sexual dimorphism in H. petersii which was not mentioned in Kovarik's diagnosis for H. spinifer might be worth considering.

Thanks for correcting my mistake Very Happy

Cheers best regards
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/18/2012, 4:47 pm

LXDNG79 wrote:

I don't see a pronounced internal tubercle on the specimen in the photograph.
After looking at Kasapub's pics again and the Kovarik 2004 pic (posted below), I'm going to agree with you. From the angle of the pics, the back end of the patella near the femur, looked like the tubercle. (The end of the patella near the femur is somewhat pointed.)
Kovarik 2004--- Heterometrus petersii:
 
LXDNG79 wrote:
I'm still leaning towards H. petersii because the enlarged tibial tooth of the chela as marked sexual dimorphism in H. petersii which was not mentioned in Kovarik's diagnosis for H. spinifer might be worth considering.
I didn't notice the enlarged tibial tooth until Kasapub posted the last set of photos.
Because of these two reasons, I'm going to change my diagnosis and say that it is actually a Heterometrus petersii. sign
Thanks for your posts.
Regards. Smile

@ Kasapub--- Sorry for the incorrect identification of your scorpion. sign It is in fact a Heterometrus petersii.

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Last edited by Scorpion19981000 on 4/25/2012, 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Pic could not be viewed.)
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/19/2012, 2:41 am

Very Happy No worries Scorpion19981000, this practice serves only to better our abilities to identify species and learn more about scorpion fauna.

Thanks for pointing out my error with the internal tubercle, that helped to further solidify my understanding of the species differences. Razz

Smile I'm also glad to know that younger hobbyist are taking the time and effort to really go through the taxanomic papers...

Very Happy Thanks for your collaboration

Neutral On a further note, I'm finding that many H spinifer that find their way into the pet stores in Europe and the U.S. tend to be H. petersii. I suppose that its likely due to supplies from Thailand, Cambodia and Laos. H. spinifer by contrast is restricted to the Malayan Penninsular but may be found in the very South of Thailand. I'm not sure if this is indicating a troubling decrease in wildly collected H. spinifer.
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/24/2012, 8:53 pm

can you sex my second h. petersii?














i hope it is a female Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/24/2012, 8:55 pm

Looks male to me.



A little off topic, but can everyone see the Kovarik 2004 pics I posted above? For some reason I can only view them if I use google chrome. (If you guys can't view the pics, then I'll host them instead of linking them.)

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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/24/2012, 10:01 pm

I can't see the Kovarik 2004 pics. Not sure if it's because i'm at my workplace.
I'll try again later at home Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/24/2012, 10:06 pm

I'll host the pics tomorrow then. I don't have time to host them now. I could view them fine on internet explorer until a couple days ago. For some reason I can still see them on Google Chrome though. scratch


-EDIT: Kovarik 2004 pics should be visible now.

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Last edited by Scorpion19981000 on 4/25/2012, 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Update.)
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PostSubject: Re: Unknown Heterometrus   4/25/2012, 7:12 am

is it really male? :/
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