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 Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?

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wodesorel
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PostSubject: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    2/24/2012, 9:19 pm

I've been wanting a female since July and I was at the shop today when the owner unpacked the latest two emps. The problem is I want both of them but I really can have only one more tank so I'm at a loss about what to do.

There is a female that I think is gravid. (Either that or she's going to molt, which I don't think is likely.) She's rather old looking - dull exo, missing a back foot, but she's pregnant which I am thrilled about. I will be getting her no matter what and I have a few days to get things ready before I pick her up.

The male she was sent with is STUNNING. He's larger than she is and shiny black and just gorgeous. I want him so badly! My gut is telling me to get him, but I really want to raise babies (correctly) this time. Smile

These two were shipped together in a little cloth bag and had no problems with each other. They were even doing the scorpion sleep pile when we put them into an enclosure. No signs of issues or aggression.

Would it be a safe idea to get the pair and keep them together? In a few months they will have a 20 gallon, but for now they'll be going in a 24x15x11 storage bin. (Long story, but I have a field mouse that will be released as soon as the weather breaks and they'll get that tank, if I can't find another larger tank at a good price first.) This will be her enclosure no matter what.

(EDIT: The tub I bought is the same size as a 10 gallon, it just looks larger for some reason. I cleaned some things up and moved some critters around tonight so I will be using a proper 10 gallon for the next two or three months until the 20 is empty or I find something else.)

The other option is to get the new male and put him in with my two boys that I currently have in the 30 gallon. He is probably a third larger then they are, and they may not be done molting yet either. This thought makes me nervous, but then again I am still a newb when it comes to Emps.

Any advice or thoughts??


Last edited by wodesorel on 2/26/2012, 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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wodesorel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    2/25/2012, 12:59 pm

Okay, so I read through a lot of stuff last night and this morning, and she will be getting the 10 and then the 20 to herself. So no worries on that. Smile

Still though, any thoughts on mixing the males? Obviously people mix scorpions if they have 8 or 10 emps in the same large tank, and I would doubt that those would all be siblings. It is a 30 gallon that I have, the two brothers are sharing a burrow on the left which means the right side (with another pipe hide) is open for digging. I hate to rush on this, but I don't want to ask the shop to hold him for me unless I'm pretty sure I'll be bringing him home and he's so gorgeous I'm afraid someone else will snatch him up!
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    2/25/2012, 1:25 pm

My thoughts are only what I saw my male do when I put him in with the other 2, I had separate hides for all 3 of them but the male thought it better too use one that was already done. He moved in and all 3 reside happily in the same burrow. Granted the other 2 are females, but they are waaay to young for him to even be thinking of bein a pops.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    2/26/2012, 7:55 pm

So the male was already sold when we got there. Bummer, but that made the choice for me. For future reference though, from what I can gather it is safe to mix them as long as they are all full grown and as long as you watch for aggression? Most will do okay but occasionally there are attacks and cannibalism?


This is the female. Once I got her home and into some good light I realized how bad looking she was. I'm pretty sure she's dehydrated. (Severely?) She's not hungry but she is actively exploring the enclosure and she did drink for about five minutes at the water bowl as soon as she found it. Is she okay? Is/was she pregnant? Aside from food, water and warmth, is there anything else I need to be doing?












(Every time I moved the camera she had to come see what it was!)
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wodesorel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/4/2012, 4:07 am

Sorry to bump, but I could really use a hand in figuring out how healthy she is. (Even any links to how they should be looking at different stages in their pregnancy.)

I believe she's had two tiny crickets so far, and she seems to be soaking and drinking on a nightly basis. She doesn't seem as puckered on her sides but it is still very noticeable. I'm concerned as she's sitting out a lot under the light during the rather than hiding in the cave, though she has started to dig it how she wants it.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/4/2012, 1:36 pm

im in the same boat bud i got three that are pregnant and im just always keeping a eye on them
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/27/2012, 1:44 am

Just wanted to give a happy update:

She was bathing on a daily basis for about the first three weeks straight, but has seemed to have stopped. She looks great! Nice and plump the way she should be if preggy. She's also been eating fairly well - about four medium crickets a week, maybe a little less. I'm going to start watching the amount I feed her now, but at the same time I want to make sure she's making up for lost nutrition.

She however has not dug a tunnel yet or shown any signs of digging. I'm rather grateful since her 20 gallon should be free in just a few weeks and that will make her easier to move. (About another month before I can let the field mouse go and get the tank back.) But I am worried since I would have though she would have felt more secure underground.

Now I'm just left to wonder when she'll pop. Smile I have no idea if it will be weeks or months, and it's kind of exciting really. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/27/2012, 4:15 am

Its seems that you are providing the right moisture from the looks of the substrate in the pics.

I can understand the excitement of waiting and it can be a pain at times too. As i looked back to my H.spinifer brood.. every single day from the day which i was sure of her pregnancy. I have been checking her out daily to see if she has delivered her young. A quick shine using a small black light torch to check should be fine Smile

With regards to estimating the female's "due date", it might be hard if we are not the ones who has nurtured them from slings/sub-adults and mated the adult pair personally. Adult females have a variable gestation period range... generally between 14-24 months. Also, they might not necessary dig a tunnel just to give birth. Some may just give birth under a hide.

My 2-cents in nurturing a female forest scorpion once you are sure of her being gravid:

1. Keep her warm and humid
2. Housed her alone and separate other specimens from her
3. Allow a temperature gradient with a slightly warmer side in her tank
4. Water dish always filled at all times
5. Keep her well fed and provide all that she could eat now, as she will need the nutrients
6. Do not leave more then one feeder roaming around in her enclosure uneaten that might cause distress (my recommendation feeder is B.lateralis roach)
7. Ensure a well ventilated but secure enclosure

In simple terms, provide her hides of darkness, spots of "warmness" and along with a humid atmosphere...
You shouldn't go too far wrong Smile
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wodesorel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/27/2012, 8:49 pm

Thank you for the advice! Smile

What is the best way to go about feeding roaches? I'm breeding dubia specifically for this purpose, but every roach I've given my two male emps has later been found alive and had ti be removed after living in the tank and growing too large. Is it just that dubias are diggers and so are able to escape being found and eaten?
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/27/2012, 11:17 pm

wodesorel wrote:
Thank you for the advice! Smile
What is the best way to go about feeding roaches?
Best way of feeding roaches...

It depends whether you are talking about burrowing dubias or non-burrowers like B.lateralis.

I'll do tong feeding for the former and it might be slightly easier for the latter, depending on the number of specimen, simply "dump in" one or two into the enclosure would suffice.

wodesorel wrote:
Is it just that dubias are diggers and so are able to escape being found and eaten?
It could be. Or maybe the scorpions might not be hungry during that period. If you are able to locate the dubias and remove them, i believe the scorpions living in the same enclosure as the dubias would be able to detect their burrowing vibrations and ultimately get to them as well.. if.. they are HUNGRY Smile

Each feeder has it's pros and cons. For the dubias, although they burrow.. i do like the size they can get up to.. excellent for feeding larger Ts or Scorpions.




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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/28/2012, 2:29 am

GS wrote:
Or maybe the scorpions might not be hungry during that period.

+1

Or you have a picky eater. I get from time to time a scorpion that will not eat everything. My H. laoticus would not take lateralis at all. As far as I remember, they didn't eat for about a months when I was trying to feed them the lateralis. But they would immediately take a cricket or a meal/superworms.
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wodesorel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/29/2012, 2:59 pm

Maybe the boys just didn't like them then. I know they ate them once when I fed them by tongs, but afterwards I would direct the roach towards their burrow when I turned the lights off since I'll go weeks without seeing them. I assumed they were being eaten and the boys never had any problems finishing off the crickets so I'm sure they were hungry during that time. But when I switched tanks last fall, and whenever I did landscaping I would find the roaches still very much alive and at that point too large for the boys. I even found one of the smaller roaches I had tried to feed a month prior just hanging out on top the wood. (Of course, part of that now may be that I'm not sure if I have one or two boys left - I've only seen one for the past couple of months and I'm hesitant to ruin the extensive burrows that were made to check for the other. )

I'll give the dubia a shot with the female to see if she's interested, though from what I've read they can be picky when pregnant. If anything, they make a good clean-up crew.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/29/2012, 6:46 pm

BABIES!!!!!

We have babies!!! cheers


I am so not ready for them.....
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/30/2012, 2:55 am

wodesorel wrote:
BABIES!!!!!

We have babies!!! cheers


I am so not ready for them.....

Nothing to worry about Smile
Just leave her be until all the babies come off her back. You can try to offer her food now if you wish as she will be exhausted from the birthing. But disable any prey you are going to offer.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    3/30/2012, 3:38 am

wodesorel wrote:
BABIES!!!!!
We have babies!!! cheers
I am so not ready for them.....
DolbyR wrote:

Nothing to worry about Smile
Just leave her be until all the babies come off her back. You can try to offer her food now if you wish as she will be exhausted from the birthing. But disable any prey you are going to offer.
+1 to DolbyR
A simple reference: [Caresheet] Raising Forest Scorpions
You may wish to scroll down to "The birth of 1.instar scorplings" somewhere in the middle Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/3/2012, 5:44 pm

Thanks for the heads up on the lateralis - I've got an order in for them and for some more fun roach species. ( Very Happy ) They should be perfect for mum and babies and maybe now I won't have to buy nasty crickets anymore.

I read through the caresheet a few times, and I'm feeling much more comfortable now. Thank you for that!

Would it be a bad thing to keep the babies in a communal tank permanently? There's only about a dozen that I can see, maybe less, so I was thinking that a 55 or a 70 gallon vivarium full of scorps would be awesome to have.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/11/2012, 2:26 am

By the way, heck of a lot more babies then I first thought!!

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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/11/2012, 12:16 pm

Congrats!

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wodesorel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/23/2012, 5:18 am

Mom is finally settling down and I was able to get a few photos. (No more coming out at night and attacking the edge of her pipe. I watched her go so nuts on it she flipped herself over with two babies on her back a few weeks back!)

It is so cool to watch her feed them!










In theory, how much should I be feeding them daily? I have some teeny lat roaches loose in there for when the little ones want to try their hand at hunting. All crickets are being head-crushed and left at the pipe opening right before I turn out the lights. She's taken six crickets in one night, which I did just to see if she would self-limit, so "feed as much as they'll eat" is not going to work here. (She went around and grabbed all six at once and stuffed them all in her mouth at the same time. It was hysterical in it's own way.)
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/23/2012, 6:49 am

Those are some great captures there wodesorel.
Photo #2 is my favorite Smile

wodesorel wrote:
In theory, how much should I be feeding them daily?
It's pretty hard to control who eats how many and how much to offer them when they're in a communal setup. As you might already know, while growing up, the frequency of feeding them (2-6.instar) is greater as compared to adults.

My suggested quantity are:

Juvenile (2-3.instar): about one-three feeders per weak,
Sub-adults (4-6.instar): about one-two feeders per weak
Adults (7.instar): One feeder every 7-10 days

Size of feeder is appropriate to the scorpion's body size. Preferably, no bigger then the scorpion's body length.

Slow down feeding/ watch them closely when they are reaching pre-moult.

wodesorel wrote:
I have some teeny lat roaches loose in there for when the little ones want to try their hand at hunting. All crickets are being head-crushed and left at the pipe opening right before I turn out the lights.

That's what i'm doing. A few B.lats roaming around is usually harmless. Definitely not the same assurance for crickets/ mealworms unless they are head-crushed.

So, any plans on how you are housing the babies? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/23/2012, 9:45 am

Nice pics wodesorel. Pic number 2 is also my favorite. Smile

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wodesorel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/24/2012, 1:51 am

Thanks! It was just pure luck that she was cooperating. Smile

Looks like their feeding schedule is working well then. I'm doing three to four subadult head-crushed crickets in the evening before lights out. Figure around 15 babies and a mom that is still in rough shape and is underweight, and I think that about works out to your suggestions with the roaming lats for extras as they need them.


I talked to my husband about buying a 55 gallon and keeping them communally when we first brought her home, but when I mentioned it to my pet store lady (who also got the scorpion bug and is now keeping a preg female so she can have babies, too) he acted like he had never heard it before. Laughing As soon as one of the shops runs a decent sale on new tanks we'll get one and set it up as a planted vivarium like the one my boy(s) have. I'll probably hang onto 10 of them or so and rehome the rest. I have to make a second rack anyway for all the new roaches' bins so it's not like there won't be room for another tank. (Or two.... Very Happy )
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/24/2012, 2:23 am

Seriously, i can never get into the minds of most LPS owners. E.g. It's such an easy task to provide an ideal tank setup for scorpions but it's seems that most of them did things otherwise...

haha.. space. Thats what i'm lacking as well.

Keep us posted on your planted vivarium Sis Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/24/2012, 2:26 am

GS wrote:

haha.. space. Thats what i'm lacking as well.

Aren't we all? Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Advice about a newly bought pregnant Emp?    4/24/2012, 2:51 am

DolbyR wrote:
GS wrote:

haha.. space. Thats what i'm lacking as well.

Aren't we all? Very Happy


Yes, most of us actually.. haha
Though i'm envious when occasionally, i do hear of peeps here doing up large viv like 55-200 gallons..
Man.. we must get a shed of some sort like callum's i guess.. lolz
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