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 [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions

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Annababe
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   11/28/2011, 2:24 pm

Agreed. Definitely some great information to have.
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**GS**
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/4/2011, 9:43 pm

DolbyR wrote:
Quote :
Although we somewhat sidetracked the topic, I have to say this has been one of the most intellectually stimulating conversations I've had with a member of the forums in some time.

Great info from both of you guys. Though, it would be nice if Bex or GS could split this up into a separate thread. Not because it's O/T or something, but because more people would maybe see it. I'm sure there's some more people who would contribute.
Myself am still too new to inverts and don't have that much exp. really, so I don't have anything to share.

Thread title has been renamed to [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions as requested by DolbyR.

It'll not be a split thread since majority of the topic is in one single discussion.

Keep up the good work guys.

Very informative indeed.
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Kale
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/5/2011, 10:51 am

Ok. I have experience this somewhat to a scorpion my nephew brought me. It was a vaejovis Carolinanius maybe it was at it's 3th or 4th instar. I noticed it's movements were very odd. It was yes jerky but more like it couldn't tell up from down. It would do weird twisty movements and also fall over. Death was the final outcome. The only thing I could think of was possible stargazing diease. I know it affects herps but could it also effect arachnids? Just by the symptoms of it seemed to point that way. Also too it could just be insecticides that affected it. As where I live. Two main insecticides are mosquito spraying and crop dusting. Now my.nephew found the scorp crawling out from his fridge. Or maybe it got into a chemical from the fridge. Freon perhaps?
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Den
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/6/2011, 11:20 am


Quote :
I noticed it's movements were very odd. It was yes jerky but more like it couldn't tell up from down.

Classic DKS symptoms..

Quote :
stargazing diease. I know it affects herps but could it also effect arachnids?

Their physiology is totally different Kale so i feel quite confident answering "highly unlikely!" .. although saying that..who knows?...the whole area of invert somantics is incredibly under researched!

Quote :
Two main insecticides are mosquito spraying and crop dusting. Now my.nephew found the scorp crawling out from his fridge. Or maybe it got into a chemical from the fridge. Freon perhaps?

Fridges should be closed systems and they shouldn't leak Freon but we all know there's a lot of old appliances out there that don't quite live up to regulations and modern standards. Still...I've read quite a bit of late on DKS and not once has anyone made a connection between DKS and Freon so based on that alone i'd say insecticides are the more likely culprit......for now at least.

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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/8/2011, 1:10 am

Now i hve a bicolor, also in premolt, behaving quite weird. Not as weird as my L Quin, but still worries me... If it is pesticide, than it could be in the substrate and that worries me even further...
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/8/2011, 1:52 am

Guys i really need some advice right now, my 2 A Bicolors dont seem to be doing as well as my other deserts ie; nebo Hierichonticus and A Australis. I fear they may have DKS due to the substrate. However, all my desert scorps share the samew substrate and they are doing fine. I dont want to lose anymore scorps, if my 2 bicolor dies it will be 3 death counts from DKS for me. You think i should change all their substrate? But than again, all their substrae are store bought from a nearby floral shop, im really scared they have chemicals/pesticides in the soil itself...Advice please.
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Envyizm
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/8/2011, 3:56 am

anything made for floral type flowers probably has some kind of insecticide and most likely an agent to prevent spider mites, which are arachnids as well. Why don't you just go to a home improvement store and get some play sand? Its about 4 bucks for 50lbs and if cleaned well, last for a long time considering its not even remotely organic. Just remember: Mainstream horticultural supplies usually= death to your arachnids. I play it safe and stick to organic any-cide free soil types and play sand for my substrate. I'm honestly curious as to why you thought a floral shop would be safe to get soil for your arachnids. Anyway, if your floral shop soil is the culprit you've definitely learned a valuable lesson at the expense of some unnecessary casualties.
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Henderson
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/8/2011, 5:33 am

Thats because i cant find anywhere else to get my supplies. The sand is play sand. Anyway thks i will try and buy sand from another place.
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Den
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/8/2011, 10:17 am

I'll agree and have agreed that insecticides could be a serious actor with regards to DKS however Envyizm that's not the same as saying that insecticides are definitively the number one cause of DKS.
To start with no one yet really knows what DKS is!...I suspect nerve damage as do many others however that's not conclusively been proven either.....all our speculations are static to coin your phrase with none of them being necessarily irrelevant or relevant...There's many possible explanations out there and just because you believe insecticides to be the prime cause doesn't really make your hypothesis any better than anyone else's...Until research has nailed cause and effect down we're all shooting in the dark.

Quote :
anything made for floral type flowers probably has some kind of insecticide and most likely an agent to prevent spider mites

Focus on the word "probably"

Quote :
Mainstream horticultural supplies usually= death to your arachnids.

Focus on the word "usually" ... Referring to this quote i have something to add. Here in Germany there's quite a few animal and garden centers with one being not that far from me..They sell all things horticulture plus rodents, birds, fish, herps and inverts..I'm often in this store checking out this and that and last weekend i had a conversation with one of the employers there that happened to be in the animal section.I asked her if she also worked in the plant section and she said "Yes..although it depends really on how busy we are"..I noticed that the staff wandered from section to section without any thought of possible contamination..they didn't wear gloves or have any kind of "sterile" procedures. There's always a few emps plus Chilean roses and other standard arachnids there and i asked if she had ever noticed anything in their arachnids that could be associated with what we call DKS .. She shook her head and seemed genuinely puzzled by the question. I then explained that there's a suspicion that insecticides could be causing this condition in hobby inverts. At the same time i asked her if they used insecticides on any of the thousands of plants and bushes they had in stock.."Yes" she said .. "all our plants are treated although in the winter period we only really worry about the indoor plants" .. I of course asked her if she had ever been working with her hands in the soil and then went over to the animal section to carry on working. By now she was starting to get a bit suspicious of my motives i guess although she answered that "yes, she had probably done that many times!" .. I carried on talking to her for a few minutes more but basically....she had never seen anything that could have been DKS in their stock, so if insecticides are as toxic and pervasive as you suggest Envyizm, i would have thought that at the very least she would have experienced something similar to DKS at some point or another.

Has anyone else an animal and plant center in their area that has a selection of inverts..If so maybe it would be prudent to pop along and see if you could find a compliant staff member that would be willing to answer a few questions similar to what i asked this young fraulein...

Quote :
Anyway, if your floral shop soil is the culprit

Again..focus on the word "if"

I've already agreed Envyizm that you paint a credible picture although reading between the lines you seem to be guessing much the same as everyone else...Plus, the insecticide hypothesis Vs DKS still doesn't explain the randomness of incidents and how, despite handling and preforming maintenance on many animals without exercising any kind of contamination procedures only one or two, or maybe none of our scorps become affected!...i'm not sure i can accept the "individual genetics" explanation here.

I have a suspicion that a mechanism connected with either pre-molt or molt could be just as valid as to a possible cause .. maybe in conjunction with other factors but again....I'm just guessing to.

We need more data and that can be accomplished if everyone who has experienced this in their stock tries to make a note of all possible data sources..for example....
Age of animal plus development status (in between molts, pre molt, post moult, young or adult).
Had you been in contact with any possible contamination sources (insecticides, fertilizers, household chemicals etc).
The amount of disturbance experienced by the scorp prior to DKS (regularly checking them, occasionally checking them or rarely checking them) with regards to handling.
Your physical location (in the country, town, close to industrial areas, agricultural areas or busy roads or train lines).
Feeding and watering regimes.
Proximity of infected stock to none infected stock.
Plus anything else that may have been a bit out of the ordinary prior to onset of DKS.

If we could build a picture based on this kind of research maybe, just maybe we could start to home in on a possible
Modus operandi in relation to DKS.

Ok, over to you guys Wink


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Envyizm
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/8/2011, 7:24 pm

As far as my previous message goes, I worded it the way I did on purpose. Although the soil type seems as a likely culprit, it could definitely be other things as well, but considering there was only a small amount of data available for me to make a suggestion from, I went with what I know. As for the floral shops; this is only going from the American based floral shops which use chemicals excessively to keep the flora as "fresh" as they're able, mostly
focusing on $$$ rather than considering the bigger picture. It would have helped me to know his location to create a more informed response, but its not listed.

As far as my experience with dks: The condition has only happened to one invert in my care, recently after feeding a pinkie to a female Accanthoscurria chacoana 2 weeks post molt. I observed one of the workers spraying mite spray on the bedding for their mammals a few weeks later. When I confronted him about it, he said that they do it to eliminate the grain mites that come from the lab chow they feed their mice and rats. I never handle my inverts and my tropicals are always on organic coco or organic top soil. Feeding and watering had been maintained with the same variation for the previous 3+ years or so. No odd behavior before feeding her the pinkie. Also, I've conversed with several other people in the hobby regarding dks in tarantulas the overwhelming majority admit to either petting their dog (who had been treated with frontline or similar), or feeding some type of vertebrate prey prior to the onset of symptoms. However, my experience with dks isn't directly related to scopions, but considering they are both from the same class of animals with very similar neurological construction, it seemed to be valid information to use.

Also, In doing research on a lot of different chemical agents meant to control certain insect populations, a majority work by attaching to gaba or chlorine channels in the central nervous system.
Now I'm not saying this hypothesis isn't up for debate, but to almost deny it even in the light of such compelling observation because there "could" be other things to trigger it is kind of foolish as this gives a good foundation to start research. If you research the effects of a lot of insecticides, you will see why. Although I hate using wiki as a resource, the wiki on the common insecticide finpronil states poisoning, "In animals and humans, fipronil poisoning is characterized by vomiting, agitation, and seizures", which are also symptoms associated with dks, at least in my experience. These symptoms associated with poisoning give more than enough cause to delve further into researching insecticides instead of other things.

Den,
as far as the "static" comment is concerned, I respectfully disagree. Honestly, I would like to see people become more aware to the possibility of insecticides in relation to dks, so that people who have inverts afflicted with this condition can make a more coherent report on the matter rather than tossing some very random and seeming arbitrary variables together to describe their situation and expect someone to magically have an answer for them.

You really don't have to possess direct research on hand to draw parallels, which is what I have done. If you really think about it, most of your counter argument comes from vicarious knowledge not attained from your own research other than a single interview with a floral shop owner, now should I question the validity of your counter on the premise of you not being able to disprove my insecticide theory? Now don't get me wrong and maybe I have misinterpreted your message, but your previous message seemed to be focused on critiquing my logic, so I felt compelled to defend it. However, if this wasn't your intention, disregard this part.

As far as chucking out or changing the substrate goes: Given the fact that Henderson doesn't have many other variable he feels could have triggered the symptoms, throwing out the substrate would eliminate what could possible take away the causal factors, which wouldn't hurt considering its just dirt after all. Remember: it is always less catastrophic to have a false positive than a false negative.

There is my two cents.

@ OP, feel free to chime in as well. I do very much enjoy this debate with Den as he has really challenging my intellect and knowledge to stay a float here, but I'd like to see other faces as well, maybe with personal experience. I know from experience that watching an animal you cared for come down with dks stays engrained in your memory, at least for some time.
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Den
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/9/2011, 12:08 pm

Quote :
I would like to see people become more aware to the possibility of insecticides in relation to dks, so that people who have inverts afflicted with this condition can make a more coherent report on the matter rather than tossing some very random and seeming arbitrary variables together to describe their situation and expect someone to magically have an answer for them.

That's fair enough Envyizm and i agree with you wholeheartedly that insecticides are without doubt a serious contender to the DKS debate..although that being said we mustn't allow ourselves to be blinkered into thinking that we needn't look any further.
This reminds me a little of the "miasmatic theory" that dominated London in the early 1800's...Sewerage and waste was untreated and basically dumped wherever there was room for it..This resulted in a colossal stench that permeated all areas and was believed at the time to be the number one reason for Cholera and the black death...An explanation that was readily accepted by doctors and the vast majority of scientists...because i mean, such a stink couldn't be healthy..that must have been the reason for the spread of these ailments!...The idea that these diseases could have been caused by small unseen microbes and viruses was put forward quite early but ridiculed for decades until late in the 1800's when John Snow proved that the miasmatic theory couldn't possibly be the correct answer.

Speculation will always be just that Envyizm until someone has the courage to do some serious research....and in this case it could be done by introducing trace amounts of insecticides into a population of slings/semi adult/adult arachnids and observing the consequences. I personally wouldn't have the heart to do this but if someone did, that would at least narrow the field with regards to DKS contra insecticides.

Quote :
If you really think about it, most of your counter argument comes from vicarious knowledge not attained from your own research other than a single interview with a floral shop owner,

Touché.....but is that really any different from your own ideas..You have surmised a connection between insecticides and DKS based on symptoms of frontline couple with observed visual symptoms of DKS afflicted arachnids....To draw a parallel.....Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease or COPD has much the same symptoms as Asthma or Bronchitis and basing a diagnosis on visual symptoms alone would undoubtedly result in the death of thousands of people each year..Luckily doctors can do a biopsy and blood work to ascertain a correct diagnosis..This is what we are lacking with our arachnids.....Diagnosis based on visual symptoms is simply not good enough...It's a start i agree..but that's all it is..No concrete facts can come from interpretation of visual symptoms alone.
We need a lot more data, which in my mind means accepting what others have observed or even their opinions...Poo pooing anything that sounds "out of context" puts us in the same category as those eminent scientists and doctors that discounted germs and viruses as being the cause of Cholera et al...Everything has to be taken into consideration if we hope to find the cause for DKS.

Quote :
but your previous message seemed to be focused on critiquing my logic

Absolutely not!...Your logic is sound..I just have a hard time accepting an argument based on sound logic alone...Spock made mistakes to ..Wink

The rest of the bulk of your post was defending your thoughts with regards to Henderson's predicament and i can't really fault that either apart from to say that as logical as your arguments and ideas were, they are still based soundly on the proposition that insecticides are the main cause of DKS.....My criticism wasn't really criticism..it was scepticism...If it turns out you are correct then i'll be the first to say "Damn, he was right all along!, well done" .. until then though i'll respectively remain a sceptic.

Quote :
but I'd like to see other faces as well, maybe with personal experience.

Agreed!...lets hear from you other guys and gals.....Envyizm and myself could probably debate this until the cows came home.....If we allow ourselves to accept the loudest voice as being correct we'll never get anywhere. So come on people..lets get some more data on this thread..What have you observed, what are your thoughts?







Last edited by Den on 12/10/2011, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Streettrash
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PostSubject: Re: [Discussion] Dyskinetic Syndrome (DKS) in Scorpions   12/9/2011, 10:45 pm

As I previously stated, I have observed DKS like symptoms in only one of my inverts. I had two Hottentotta hottentotta both purchased from a reputable LPS, both at i2. I kept them in identical conditions, and they shared a relatively similar molt schedule usually only a few days apart. After the molt to i4 they both began feeding again. After a few weeks one started displaying symptoms while the other remained healthy. My immediate concern was that my specimen was possibly dehydrated, though I offered water and food on the same schedule for both of them. I bumped the humidity in the enclosure and offered a small dish of water. The scorpion showed a bit of improvement and it's movements normalized quite a bit. I offered it a cricket at this point a it had not eaten at the last feeding. It only ate the head and discarded the rest. In spite of the glimmer of hope I had at this point, the symptoms returned and the scorpion eventually died as a result. The other completed the molt to i5 not long after, and is currently off feed seemingly preparing for the molt to i6.

I have absolutely no idea what actually happened to my scorpion. Nothing else in my collection was affected, all fed from the same source, offered the same water, live on the same sterilized play sand from the hardware store, and coco fiber from the pet shop. There were no visible fungal blooms in any of the enclosures, no woods from outside.

Anyhow, not much help on the theory side of things. Just thought I'd share a few details about my experience.
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