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 Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?

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pluto
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 3:05 am

These animals drive on instincts... they have no brain as mamals (written correctly?) have, even far behind on herps and other cold blooded trash.

The reason emps and most are so docile is because they save energy for when it is really needed instinctively. The bigger the scorpion, the more energy it needs to move.

They also like to reside in ambush as well as blend in with their environment thinking they are not noticed. Look at Tityus, you can poke them and they wont even move, because to them survival at that time is sitting still and blending in.

And if a scorpion is real real docile, its prolly dying or dead.

There is no romance between a scorpion and its keeper.
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*~BEX~*
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 3:07 am

Haha so true Emps are all Lennys

I have captive bred emps now yay maybe I should train them up lol Smile

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lordpotato
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 8:32 am

Now Pluto, if we were to go by your theory, than swammerdami would be the most docile of all.
Which I think they are... I haven't done much research on them.
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 9:28 am

my swammerdamis were always docile... though they all died within weeks of me having them (after 5 separate failures i have given up on them).

technically everything learns, though describing it with human terms like intelligence etc. is difficult and confusing.
adaptation is a better term. adaptation mixed with instinct is the basis of all knowledge of everything.
you can sort of "train" scorpions to do some things, like being better display species by getting the humidity just right so they dont feel the need to burrow.
however, learning, it can be incorrectly perceived.
theoretically say you had 100 2nd instar emps in a tank. now, pretend your a complete idiot and you used sand substrate, but you made it 1foot deep with a false bottom constantly topped up with an inch of water and with several heat lamps on top.
after cooking several of them, the rest would begin to burrow, and would eventually reach a level with a desirable humidity.
you could argue that they are learning about their environment and deducing that the best thing to do is dig, but actually they are pre programmed to dig when its too dry, its not gained knowledge, its already there, all they are doing is applying it to the current situation.

as well as adapting to their environment, they also get used to it. this is where the real argument for gaining knowledge can be found.
scorpions have a little cluster of neurological connections which is technically a brain. its not capable of much.
neither is the brain of a tiny fish, in this case a white cloud minnow. i have a fish tank in my room, it contains minnows, platys and 2 kribensis cichlids. the cichlids are clever, they associate the door opening with food, the minnows think as a shoal, they see either the kribs moving and follow, or the lights coming on and instinctively move to the surface. the platys are thick, they go to the surface when they hear the others feeding.
in every single scenario of my fishtank there is realisation amongst the tiny little brains of these fish that one thing or another indicates there will be food soon.
why couldnt a scorpion do this? i suspect they could. the only thing is as terrestrial animals they cant escape predators as quick as a fish, and look at the things, built to be biased towards fight rather than flight, so of course they are more on guard and react to movement or noise by getting ready to kill.

then, if we are going on size, yes i can see this prevailing among the cichlids, the bigger the fish the smarter it is. but have you ever seen what ants can do. they, as a community (and arguably all working as part of one organisation...or brain) can do some crazy stuff, like calculating where to put certain holes for optimum ventilation, which direction to make their nests face, etc.
but when did they figure out to farm? did it start with one that had an idea? if not how did it ever begin.
they can farm mosses and moulds, milk aphids....
and they have order, with different members of the nest having different ranks amongst the group.

i dont think "scorpions are stupid" ends the question of "can they learn". it needs to go a bit more in depth than that.
maybe you could try to get a scorpion circus going with your emp babies?
i want to see them riding crickets like horses by their 3rd moult... Very Happy Very Happy
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*~BEX~*
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 9:52 am

hahaha will need dome big ol crix for them to ride lol maybe large locust may be better.... also high wire and trapeeze training maybe lol Smile

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pluto
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 10:11 am

_scorpio_ wrote:
my swammerdamis were always docile... though they all died within weeks of me having them (after 5 separate failures i have given up on them).

technically everything learns, though describing it with human terms like intelligence etc. is difficult and confusing.
adaptation is a better term. adaptation mixed with instinct is the basis of all knowledge of everything.
you can sort of "train" scorpions to do some things, like being better display species by getting the humidity just right so they dont feel the need to burrow.
however, learning, it can be incorrectly perceived.
theoretically say you had 100 2nd instar emps in a tank. now, pretend your a complete idiot and you used sand substrate, but you made it 1foot deep with a false bottom constantly topped up with an inch of water and with several heat lamps on top.
after cooking several of them, the rest would begin to burrow, and would eventually reach a level with a desirable humidity.
you could argue that they are learning about their environment and deducing that the best thing to do is dig, but actually they are pre programmed to dig when its too dry, its not gained knowledge, its already there, all they are doing is applying it to the current situation.

as well as adapting to their environment, they also get used to it. this is where the real argument for gaining knowledge can be found.
scorpions have a little cluster of neurological connections which is technically a brain. its not capable of much.
neither is the brain of a tiny fish, in this case a white cloud minnow. i have a fish tank in my room, it contains minnows, platys and 2 kribensis cichlids. the cichlids are clever, they associate the door opening with food, the minnows think as a shoal, they see either the kribs moving and follow, or the lights coming on and instinctively move to the surface. the platys are thick, they go to the surface when they hear the others feeding.
in every single scenario of my fishtank there is realisation amongst the tiny little brains of these fish that one thing or another indicates there will be food soon.
why couldnt a scorpion do this? i suspect they could. the only thing is as terrestrial animals they cant escape predators as quick as a fish, and look at the things, built to be biased towards fight rather than flight, so of course they are more on guard and react to movement or noise by getting ready to kill.

then, if we are going on size, yes i can see this prevailing among the cichlids, the bigger the fish the smarter it is. but have you ever seen what ants can do. they, as a community (and arguably all working as part of one organisation...or brain) can do some crazy stuff, like calculating where to put certain holes for optimum ventilation, which direction to make their nests face, etc.
but when did they figure out to farm? did it start with one that had an idea? if not how did it ever begin.
they can farm mosses and moulds, milk aphids....
and they have order, with different members of the nest having different ranks amongst the group.

i dont think "scorpions are stupid" ends the question of "can they learn". it needs to go a bit more in depth than that.
maybe you could try to get a scorpion circus going with your emp babies?
i want to see them riding crickets like horses by their 3rd moult... Very Happy Very Happy

I actually like this reply. Its well put together based on various species. Nice one scorp.
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_scorpio_
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 11:09 am

thanks! in reality i was just babbling on about whatever sprang to mind, but i think it would be a good thing to investigate further... if only my scorpions would get on and have some babies!!
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lordpotato
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/13/2011, 7:12 pm

5 star post Scorpio! I think my female might have just gotten gravid(saw them mating). So I'll try and figure some tests out.
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shining
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/14/2011, 12:15 am

cichlids are amazing arent they? cheers

something relevant to our invert friends intelligence.
http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/5/1/11.full
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Annababe
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PostSubject: Re: Can scorpions learn or are they machines like snakes?   9/14/2011, 11:59 am

shining wrote:
cichlids are amazing arent they? cheers

something relevant to our invert friends intelligence.
http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/5/1/11.full


Lots of big words lol, but an interesting read nonetheless. Thanks for sharing Smile
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