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 Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?

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Taledus
Hadogenes


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PostSubject: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/15/2011, 9:33 am

It's coming down to the wire when we get refund in and I place my orders, so in the mean time I have been looking at the choices currently available everywhere I can come across that is reputable, and doing a ton of research on the species. I have already decided that one large communal tank for each species would be nice, but my 20" x 10" tall 15gal for a jumbo hermit crab is too heavy alone with the substrate let alone it would definitely be with a rock false bottom. So for now I am going to just stick with 10 gal setups.

However, I came across an article that says you can keep up to 5 emps in a 10 gallon tank...currently I have my 4 males in one and they are doing great, except the largest male who seems to want to be hand fed with long tweezers. But it got me to thinking since my wife and I talked we want to have more communal species instead of a grip load of smaller enclosures around. And I am probably going to keep on separating males and females in order to control the number that might be bred. Some of the communal species I have been looking into are various sized, and even though most of everything says they are communal, it doesn't really state how many scorps per setup without worry of it being too many.

My wife's rule of thumb for fish is 1gal for every 1"fish...simple enough. But not sure that would apply to anything else. If communal scorps were categorized into Small, Medium, Large, what would be the general number of scorps for each size in a standard 10 gal setup with plenty of hiding opportunities?

The non-communal species I have been looking into I would think for like small-medium sized a 5.5gal split setup would be sufficient, and perhaps the medium-large sized would do okay in a split 10gal setup...but I wanted to get an opinion if it would be better off having individual setups for each of these. I'm just trying to reduce the number of individual tanks that I would have around with only 1 scorp in them, and trying to get a general "rule-of-thumb" on going about this.

Thanks for any ideas with this.
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Tityus
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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/15/2011, 11:22 am

Depends on the species, there's alot of species that don't really need alot of room (bark scorpions for intance) so you can keep them in relatively small containers, like those 100 cricket tubs for instance. That would be good for like, say, a centruroides spp. or a B.jacks. For Hottentotta spp you also don't really need a ton of room either, like a 8x8 inch squareish container would work just fine for adults and a screwbox or jewellery box works for keeping juvi's.

If you were going to go for something like leiurus or androctonus or something of that size you could probably even split a 5.5gallon into 4, the width would be more than enough on an 800x600.

The only species that really need a good amount of room are the larger ones and the burrowing ones like Pandinus, Hadrurus, etc.
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Taledus
Hadogenes


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Location : Tennessee
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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/15/2011, 12:12 pm

I know I am definitely going to get a few desert hairy, and I am thinking that they would need at least one 10gal split to make two 10" x 10" for only 2 of them since they are not communal. Initially I thought my emps would need a lot more room, but as it stands I have nearly 6" of coco fiber on half of the tank with ended-out terracotta pots sideways buried in for hides...the rest of the tank is 2" to 3" of the remaining coco fiber. No fighting noticed yet in that tank as opposed to the female 10gal with only 2 females in it. When they were first introduced they were at it for a few minutes, but since then have resorted to having tea parties in the same hide Smile.

The reason I am trying to get an idea of the number is because of the upcoming order. I dread paying $30 for shipping just one or two scorps, so I am opting to place a moderate size order so I don't feel so bad about the shipping. Before they get here I am wanting to have all the tanks ready to go, but being unsure about the number of communal scorps in a ten gallon I figure it would be better off simply asking cause browsing back over 2 years of posts has yet to cover something.

Then again there is the retarded cost of a 5.5gal...when I can simply get a 10gal and lid and divider for $30. So that would mean for a split 10gal small communal species would have a whopping 10" x 10" area of play. So on a small size like the b. jacksoni, what would be the max number of adults kept in a 10" x 10"?
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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/15/2011, 4:37 pm

"So on a small size like the b. jacksoni, what would be the max number of adults kept in a 10" x 10"?"

I'm not an expert on B.Jacks but i'm pretty sure you can fit a good 10 in there depending on if you have a good amount of hides like spiral sticks and bark and a bush or two. They are extremely communal especially if they are siblings.
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Taledus
Hadogenes


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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/17/2011, 10:20 am

Not going to start an entire thread just for this, so I'll just add it here...

Kids and Leiurus quinquestriatus (Death Stalker). What precautions do you guys/gals go through to make sure they never have the chance to come in contact. While I want to keep all of my tanks the same 10 gal ones with tempered glass, I am thinking that plexi tanks would be better suited, with pad-locked tops, locked in a separate room/closet. However, I see absolutely no need in getting something if you cannot observe it when it does come out, so displayed for everyone to see but safely.

It's not that I am being overly paranoid here, just taking precautions as I have thought about getting a couple and want to cover all the bases before the idea actually sets in as something I would actually get. I don't see it as being any worse that a kid coming across a rattle snake or copper head while playing in the yard, yet I would be the one responsible for the LQ's even being around. I'm not worried about getting stung either as I don't even try to bother my emps needlessly, let alone something much worse. But accidents do happen, and with kids I want to make absolutely sure that they don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/19/2011, 1:10 pm

There's tanks with side opening doors that you can get that have a locking ring on them to put a padlock on, I would use something like that for an LQ.
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iitomodachi1
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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/19/2011, 4:12 pm

There are tanks with locking sliding lids too, but I'd also keep them in a locked room. Something like this a bit scary with kids, I'm still in debate with my Parabuthus I've just added. They are behind a pad lock, above eye level and when I move soon they will be in a locked room/my office. No chances in my opinion.

As for the emps, I have a 30 gallon set up for four H. Spinifer. You definitely want more than a 10 gallon tank for 4 emps. One their is not enough room and 2 if you put 6 to 8" of substrate for burrowing they are already at the top of the tank and can climb right out. I posted some alternative thoughts to a gravel false bottom on here you could check out. They are home made cheap alternatives as I know how heavy gravel is Very Happy.

As for the non communal species you think of, what are you looking at? Sorry if I missed something but I read the thread and have no idea what species you are looking at. I may recommend H. Spinigerus as it sounds like they'd be a good match for you. I love mine, they are nice looking scorps, cheap being they are from AZ and fun to watch. More aggressive and use their sting. I have 2 females in a split 5 gallon tank and they have plenty of room.

Good luck on whatever you do.
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Taledus
Hadogenes


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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/20/2011, 2:32 am

I was just curious initially as I have been discussing with a guy about buying some of his scorps of various species, and LQ's were one of them. My wife and I discussed it though and until a fool proof method is achieved for keeping them then we are just going to hold off for now.

As for the emps, Walmart sells cheap lids for the 10 gallon that screw on so they don't escape. They came from the pet store though and they keep approximately 6-8 assorted emps in a 10 gallon. So far there hasn't been any problems because they are all burrowed up together. Originally I wanted to keep everything in 10 gallon tanks for aesthetic reasons, but if I happen to breed any of my emps, they have babies, babies grow up, I'm going to need a lot more space for all of them to be communal. So the wife and I have been discussing getting one 20gal for 3 of the emps and keeping the larger male alone cause we like hand feeding him, or today we saw a 40gal "breeder" tank at Petco for around $80 I believe. If I put enough substrate and decoration in there I could probably put in about 8-10 full grown males. Right now we are undecided on what to do, so tomorrow I am going to put 2 of them in one of the 10gal tanks I took apart and pieced back together.

But for the communal and non-communal species, I wasn't looking for anything in particular just trying to get a round-a-bout idea of tank size compared to scorp size. Some of the ones I was looking at getting were communal, and some weren't, while others were small in size and others were larger.

Right now I am settling with getting a colony (12-15 & gravid female) Centruroides vittatus, (3 adult/3 sub) Vaejovis confusus, and (2) 3i Hottentotta caboverdensis. I am ordering on Monday, he said he would ship Tuesday after the holiday and I should have them Wednesday. I'm holding off on the desert hairy's for a few days until I get these in and things sorted.

The H. caboverdensis are fairly easy, just split a 10 gal between them. The C. vittatus I believe will have half in one 10gal, with the other half in another 10gal, and the gravid female alone in something. For the V. confusus I think the 3 adults will go in a 10gal together, but the 3 subs be separated in different containers for the time being. So that's 4 additional tanks for the split and communal enclosures, plus 4 other tanks to house the single scorps.

Overall I'm looking at each additional 10gal I get running about $25 with screw locking lid. The 2.5gal are like $14 each and no lid, and the 5.5gal run about the same. I'm just trying to get the best value for the containers to house my growing interest right now. I have tried finding used tanks, but it is worth the one or two dollars I would pay for a brand new one to not have to scrub all the lime and calcium off the sides of the tanks.

My wife found clear plastic shoe boxes with snug fitting lids at Freds for like $1, which I could use to house scorplings or small scorps, so I am going to take a look into those.

...I just scrolled up and realized I just wrote a small novel so I'll leave this post at that Very Happy

[/novel]
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iitomodachi1
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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/20/2011, 11:47 am

Lolz @ the novel tag Very Happy

well sounds like you are leaning on the side of caution and doing your homework. I do not know much about the specific species you have mentioned but what I do know is it sounds like you got things straight. I would disagree however with the Emps still. I would also never go by what the pet stores do with scorps. I have yet to see one keep them in proper conditions. I have even had discussions about why they don't even keep enough substrate for burrowing with with pet shop owners and have been told the customers can't see the scorps if they burrow. *shakes head
Some species I know can take crowding well and can handle more bodies in less space. I believe B. Jacksoni are like this and some other barks but it would be best to do the research on each species.

As for cleaning tanks, if you can get 10's for under 10 you are doing good but if you pick up used tanks as it doesn't matter if they don't hold water so you have a good shot at finding them, use white vinegar to clean them. Calcium and everything else comes right off! I put the vinegar in a spray bottle. Just something I have found.

Good luck and definitely post up pix as you go along, sounds like you will have some cool little critters!
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Taledus
Hadogenes


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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/21/2011, 10:41 am

The pet store was keeping them on what I have heard every other pet store keeps them on, a small amount of non-burrowable bark chips. Yesterday I setup another 10gal for them, but at 4 different Walmarts I was very unsuccessful in finding the lids. I can order them online for a bit cheaper though, and 5 of these with shipping is going to run me $42. However I was also looking into cutting some plexi lids myself and ordering some of the screens that TarantulaHomes.com has, but would cost a lot more for the tanks I have and the ones I have to setup over the next 2 days so I'm probably going to place an order today for the Walmart ones.

I have tried to do my best to research the scorps I am getting, but didn't need to due to the email I got this morning after I had send my money through PayPal. I got one heck of a detailed message about how the scorps are currently kept, along with pictures too. I only need to get a bit of sand and some drift wood which I can walk across the street to the Mississippi river to get and sterilize. I'll only need two tanks setup for the colony ones, and he is sending me some small containers that will suffice until one of the species get a bit bigger. Even though I rarely order stuff from individuals online because I am so leary, this is proving to be a positive one and I'm going to post feedback on all the boards I have signed up for so others will know how good of an experience I am getting Smile.

I did want to note on the false bottoms...I've been doing some testing and the only thing I can really come up with is a piece of plexi glass cut just a tad bit smaller than the inner dimensions of the tank, with a metal screen mesh hot glued into a cutout in the center of the plexi. As for a filler I can only come up with some sealed styrofoam strips cut to run in between the pieces of pipe. The water can be wicked up, but it still means that the bottom of the tank will always hold a bit of water. 1/2" pipe could be used and the plexi lay right on it, but then again it would be almost as easy to just put a few spacers down and let the water run straight down the pipe on the bottom with no intricate pipe system ran across. The only thing about this is with the larger tanks a lot more spacers would need to be used in order to distribute the weight of the plexi that is holding all of the substrate to keep from cracking the bottom glass.

Anyways, pics are coming soon of all my setups once I get everything sorted Very Happy
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iitomodachi1
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PostSubject: Re: Number of scorps in communal and non-communal tanks by size?   2/21/2011, 12:09 pm

Check this out, it is an alternative means I had been playing with. Make sure you check out the pics in the end to see what I ended up doing for a 30 gal as I had to make some tweaks to the original idea...

http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com/t5579-false-bottom-alternative?highlight=false+bottom+alternative

As for plexiglass lids and the screens you mentioned, I do that as well. I'm building one for that 30 as it keeps the humidity high. I also do this for my T's. Plexiglass is expensive as all get up! But I definitely need this option for aboreal T's so you can see in the front Very Happy

I will have to take a look at those walmart lids and see if they will work for some of the terrestrial T's as I am making about 20 set ups at the moment :/
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