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Taledus
Hadogenes


Number of posts : 64
Age : 37
Location : Tennessee
Registration date : 2011-01-20

PostSubject: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/20/2011, 6:36 pm

When I get time I will post a bit about myself and some pics of my emperors, but all day it has been eating at me...I bought 4 emperors from the same pet store. 2 full grown adults, and 2 that can molt another few times. Not my first time owning scorpions, but my first time owning more than 1, and the first time I have thought about breeding them.

The question lies with breeding the scorpions. Does inbreeding really matter? I really don't know, and sorry for the redneck question, but if in insects it does matter then I would rather purchase another few from somewhere else to make sure that there are no issues.

And since I am on the subject of breeding, I thought about the various ones to try with. I have noticed that the most popular ones are emperors, desert hairy, and a few others, but in the request area people are looking for other species that seem to be a bit more $$$ to get started with a few. Whats a good number of species to start with? And do you opt to breed the more popular ones, or go for the rarer ones? I am sure it is up to preference, but I wanted to get an idea of a good place to start.

...and while I am at it I wanted to request that in the FAQ's it be stated about the proper way to pick up scorpions. Since I ran across a post that said not to "tail" the scorpion, my wife has yet to pick them up like that again (since she is the only one who will). It might be nice for people to be able to find that info in the FAQ's.

Thanks for any help.
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Mr. Mordax
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/20/2011, 7:36 pm

Inbreeding isn't such a big issue with inverts. I've heard of people's roach colonies becoming infertile after many generations, but I wouldn't worry if it's only a generation or two.

As far as which ones to breed, emps are a good start because they're relatively easy. They're also overcollected in the wild and CITES-listed, so more CB is always a good thing. Very Happy

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Taledus
Hadogenes


Number of posts : 64
Age : 37
Location : Tennessee
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/20/2011, 9:10 pm

Thanks for the response.

Happen to know where a list of species that I cannot legally mess with in the US is? I tried searching, but have found nothing, but have read a few other posts that mention certain locations that some species are illegal to own.
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Mr. Mordax
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/20/2011, 9:12 pm

There's none that are illegal in the US.

UK can't have any Buthidae or one non-Buthid genus (Nebo, I think). A couple of European countries have genus-specific bans.

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Taledus
Hadogenes


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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/21/2011, 11:35 am

Okay, after Googling "Buthidae" I have determined that I might be going around this the wrong way Very Happy. It seems that several species are deadly to humans, but it does not go into detail on the extent if these people were highly allergic to the stings or not.

Also, looking at a few of the sites that sell scorpions, the Israeli Death Stalker is sold, as well as some of the fattails, but are highly deadly to humans...so not the best place to get a list of species to start off with. Pardon my ignorance to the hobby, but is there an idiots guide somewhere listing the Family/Genera/Species in order of venom toxicity? If not there should be one, LOL.

For now I'll just stick with my Emps, and getting some Desert Hairy's...maybe some flatrock or something similar (if I can ever sort through the info finding which species aren't going to kill me or the kids (wife has to fend for herself since she is the only one crazy enough to want to handle these buggers...) lol). But I am going to try and locate the area here in TN where local scorpions are found. I pulled up an article that TN has scorpions, but it does not tell where in the state they are located. Since I haven't ever heard of anyone from here dying of a sting, those might be good to start with too.

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Mr. Mordax
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/21/2011, 1:25 pm

http://www.ntnu.no/ub/scorpion-files/medicallist.php

A couple of things to point out:

"Highly deadly to humans" is a slight exaggeration. Yes, a number of these species cause human deaths, but the majority of those are kids / elderly / infirm / etc. If you look at the LD50 values, the odds of a healthy adult human dying from a sting are incredibly slim. (Granted, it may hurt enough that you'd rather die and be done with it.)

"Allergic" is not a good word to use in this case. "Sensitive," maybe, but I have yet to find a scholarly article describing someone suffering anaphylaxis as the result of a scorpion sting. Being allergic to bee stings is a moot point, as bee allergies are triggered by histamine in the bee's venom, a chemical that scorpion venom does not possess (generally, scorpion venom is a mixture of protein-based neurotoxins (such as something that blocks ion channels in nerve cells)).

[Edit: I neglected to mention that I found ONE article where they did a skin-test type of allergy test using something from Centruroides vittatus venom and had positive results in some of the test subjects -- so while it's theoretically possible to be allergic, a well-documented case has not come up. Also, a skin-test doesn't necessarily indicate a level of allergy that will result in anaphylactic shock, but perhaps just local inflammation (which may be less severe than the direct effects of the venom).]

There has not been a recorded death in the US due to a native scorpion sting since 1960. The only species responsible for this is limited to Arizona and parts of Nevada (Centruroides sculpturatus).

Hope this helps . . .

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iitomodachi1
Tityus


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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/21/2011, 4:13 pm

+1 to Mr. Mordax, the C. Sculpturatus is the Arizona Bark Scorpion and the deaths prior to the last recorded death are largely due to the lack of knowledge regarding the venom. (As Mr. Mordax said also, deaths are mostly in kids under 100 lbs and elderly or sickly adults) Things have a come a long and this particular species is moderately potent in the grand spectrum of things.
With that being said any US species you get would be a good start. I might recommend Hoffmanius Spinigerus as they are cheap if you don't get them yourself and medium sized, moderately aggressive and cool to watch. In the case of the two broods I have I ended up with nearly 100 slings.
I would recommend looking type of environment you want to care for, arid is far less work in my opinion and then look at what scorps are available. When you see some that are of interest, research the LD50 value or just search or inquire about them here. There are plenty of very experienced people on this forum and everyone is more than willing to help.

Other Centroides like C. Vitattus maybe something to look at. I recall seeing the care is very easy, they can stay at room temperature, are active and easy to breed. (correct me if I'm wrong anyone, as I have not kept these). I do have some C. Sculpturatus that survived freezing temps that killed 8 P. Transvaalicus a few months back. So the native US species are all pretty hardy as there are recorded freezing temperatures in all parts of the country including the SW.

Good luck and welcome to the forum
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Taledus
Hadogenes


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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/21/2011, 8:33 pm

Wow, thanks so much for the info putting things in a more realistic perspective guys. So now my major concern is the kids since they are under 100 lbs. I doubt they would ever mess with the scorps, but the possibility that it "could" happen would simply turn me off to the idea of the more potent ones (for the time being).
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iitomodachi1
Tityus


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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/21/2011, 9:16 pm

I know where youre comin from. I have a soon to be 5 year old whom I have fulltime. He is very good but I'm still paranoid! I would feel horrible if something happened.

For that just to ease my worries I spend a little extra money and buy the critter keepers that have the sliding screen lids and fixtures for locks. I'm talking pad locks.

However that still isn't good enough for me!
A.) I will be moving in a couple of months and intend on keeping our scorps in my office so I can lock the door. There then will be no children around the scorps unsupervised.

B.) I have also talked to a friend of mine who I am purchasing 2 display cases. The kind you find in a jewelery store with the sliding backs. I will then make those lockable, I hope that heating one of these will also help minimize the amount of lamps I am currently using Very Happy

Ultimately the safest thing though is to keep less potent pets. There are a lot of gorgeous species that have a low LD50.

My little guy is my life though so I'm a little overly cautious.
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Taledus
Hadogenes


Number of posts : 64
Age : 37
Location : Tennessee
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/23/2011, 2:44 pm

So much for breeding my lot...they are all males Sad

I was wondering why they have been so peaceful, there is no female to fight over...lol
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iitomodachi1
Tityus


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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/23/2011, 3:07 pm

Taledus wrote:
So much for breeding my lot...they are all males Sad

I was wondering why they have been so peaceful, there is no female to fight over...lol

A famous man once said, "No Woman, No Cry" Very Happy
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Manser
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding/Inbreeding   1/23/2011, 6:15 pm

Laughup

hahaha

very true.
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