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Penny
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PostSubject: Scorpion cruelty   12/1/2010, 10:53 pm

I thought this would make for interesting discussion.. as long as everyone is respectful of one another's opinions (so please do so).

Is it cruel?...

-to keep scorpions in captivity? (obviously most of us don't think it is but I ask anyway Razz)
Even though they often live longer lives in captivity, are they happier?

-to intentionally anger a scorpion? I notice some people like to "show off" scorpions by provoking them.

-to entice a fight between a scorpion and another animal? Does it matter whether or not they're both scorpions? (feeding excluded)

-to pick a scorpion up by the tail?

-to feed dead food to a scorpion, rather than providing them with live prey?

-to eat them? (bonus question) I know nearly everyone cringes at the idea of "pet" species being eaten, but people have pet fish, pigs, chicks, etc too.
I think I'm only more phased if the animal still looks as it did while alive... like if it wasn't chopped up... which is completely demented yet so much easier than facing the reality that we're eating things that have faces.


I'm increasingly sensitive towards scorpions after getting Jade (my emp).. I used to be indifferent (for the most part) about people eating them, fighting them, etc.. Or atleast as indifferent as I am about people eating cows. But if someone ate a scorpion in front of me now I think I'd flip out.
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iitomodachi1
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/1/2010, 11:23 pm

I think captivity if done properly is just fine

the rest are cruel save the last one.

I eat the holiest animal in India, I wouldn't have a problem trying dog in Korea or scorpions in Thailand. In Japan I saw an Octopus in the live tank in a restaurant with one tentacle and was told it was the best food in the restaurant it was what made the place well known, I ate it and it was delicious when I left I noticed that Octopus had 0 testicles left! *don't worry folks, they grow back Very Happy*

Just my thoughts
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/1/2010, 11:31 pm

iitomodachi1 wrote:
I think captivity if done properly is just fine

the rest are cruel save the last one.

I eat the holiest animal in India, I wouldn't have a problem trying dog in Korea or scorpions in Thailand. In Japan I saw an Octopus in the live tank in a restaurant with one tentacle and was told it was the best food in the restaurant it was what made the place well known, I ate it and it was delicious when I left I noticed that Octopus had 0 testicles left! *don't worry folks, they grow back Very Happy*

Just my thoughts

Tentacles* Wink

The only cruel thing is making scorpions fight for pleasure.

I see no harm in pissing off a scorpion a little for a picture, granted you don't do it every night.

Picking smaller scorpions up by the tail is necessary for many cases such as rehousing and collecting wild specimens.

And feeding them dead prey? How is that at all cruel? They eat, they get nourishment and an easy meal. For smaller species this is necessary as we don't always have prey items that small.

And eating them I don't view as any more cruel than eating a hamburger or bacon. People eat guinea pigs in Peru and sushi in Japan. There's not much of a difference IMO, just differences in culture.
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/1/2010, 11:37 pm

If I go to Thailand I would definitely try some scorpion to eat. Try new horizons I always say, might taste like chicken Razz*
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iitomodachi1
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/1/2010, 11:42 pm

Canth wrote:
iitomodachi1 wrote:
I think captivity if done properly is just fine

the rest are cruel save the last one.

I eat the holiest animal in India, I wouldn't have a problem trying dog in Korea or scorpions in Thailand. In Japan I saw an Octopus in the live tank in a restaurant with one tentacle and was told it was the best food in the restaurant it was what made the place well known, I ate it and it was delicious when I left I noticed that Octopus had 0 testicles left! *don't worry folks, they grow back Very Happy*

Just my thoughts

Tentacles* Wink

The only cruel thing is making scorpions fight for pleasure.

I see no harm in pissing off a scorpion a little for a picture, granted you don't do it every night.

Picking smaller scorpions up by the tail is necessary for many cases such as rehousing and collecting wild specimens.

And feeding them dead prey? How is that at all cruel? They eat, they get nourishment and an easy meal. For smaller species this is necessary as we don't always have prey items that small.

And eating them I don't view as any more cruel than eating a hamburger or bacon. People eat guinea pigs in Peru and sushi in Japan. There's not much of a difference IMO, just differences in culture.

I agree, even with the things you pointed out that differed. I'll explain.. but first, thanks for the spelling correction, I lean on the spell check of my browser too much, that is why it was misspelled each time :/

A.) There are exceptions to every rule, if you rile a scorp up on occasion for a photo, that is fine, but if you get an animal to show it off and torment it regularly to do so it is cruel IMO
B.) Picking them up by the tail, if you have to, you have to, but if you can use a deli cup or something and coax them into it it would prly be a little less risky as far as the scrop getting hurt, or yourself for that matter.
C.)And dead prey I didn't bother explaining, I was under the train of thought that they probably wouldn't eat much for dead and you should feed them what they eat in the wild. But I hadn't thought until after posting that I have had to feed babies partial crickets (obviously dead) before. There isn't anything wrong with it in cases like that but if you are not feeding them what they would normally eat in the wild or are acceptable compromises to their normal diet, it would fall under inproper care of your animal, again IMO.

Question though - will various species of mature scorps eat dead prey, or scavenge for food?? I'm sincerly asking as my response was left up as a speculation.

Bare with me Canth as I'm just trying to explain my response a little better, as I don't disagree with a lot of the stuff outright, I see a lot of grey in answering these questions. Other than maybe pit fighting any animal for viewing pleasure.
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Penny
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/1/2010, 11:52 pm

"Question though - will various species of mature scorps eat dead prey, or scavenge for food?? I'm sincerly asking as my response was left up as a speculation."

From what I've read, they never eat dead prey on their own... only if you stick it in their face. Never saw anything about an exception for a certain species.

I am all for trying new things too.. but of course my situation is a bit different, seeing how I don't even think of any sort of animal as being food (yet I respect other peoples' diets aswell).
As much as buffets freak me out because I have to inspect everything for about five minutes before putting it on my plate (and have prior knowledge as to how it is prepared), I try everything I can lol.
Morally, there is no difference between eating dogs, cows, and scorpions imo.. but personal biases change our emotional standpoint... and I get pretty emotional when it comes to my pets.
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/1/2010, 11:56 pm

That is what I asking also Penny - about scorps eating dead prey. I know a lot of scorplings will but am not sure about that when they mature or even get into later instars. Not that I would want to substitute dead for living crickets and roaches but I am curious if they will just because.
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Penny
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 12:03 am

I think the babies naturally eat dead prey because they expect mommy to do the dirty work. Razz

I found something interesting here.

I personally think scorpions prefer the thrill of the hunt.
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 1:37 am

Scorpions "prefer" getting food in general, as opposed to the alternative -- there's no "thrill of the hunt" for an invert.

In fact, slower, clumsier, half-dead prey would be easier as they have to expend less energy to acquire it.

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Penny
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 1:39 am

Can you site a source to support that claim?
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 1:41 am

Can you cite a source that scorpions get a thrill out of anything? Wink

Or as for the second claim, just alternate prey sources in your own collection. Which do they catch quicker, and which do they display greater interest in? In my experience, it's the one they can catch and eat with the least amount of trouble.

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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 2:12 am

I briefly forgot to consider why scorpions (under most circumstances) reject dead prey... so semi-disregard what I said. Something I read a few days ago said it was a precaution to avoid diseases and consume healthier, fresher, more nutritious prey.. an "instinctive" thing I suppose.

I've tried repeatedly to find evidence of scorpions feeling any sort of joy, but all I have to go on it my own rationalization; they can clearly be afraid (and debatabley angry), so imo it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't feel other emotions too. I don't expect their emotions to be the same as ours, but I'm sure they feel something. I wish there were more studies on this sort of thing.

First priority is always survival, but I do imagine they enjoy it to some extent to. Some of them are pretty gluttonous.
Some species actively hunt their prey, don't they?
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 2:21 am

Some have more of a "run it down in the open" method over a "sit in the burrow with open pincher" method.

My guess as to rejecting dead prey is that all hunting methods rely on motion of some sort to alert to the presence of prey (hence all the trichobothria and other sensory hairs that respond to vibration). Dead things don't typically move, so they will ignore dead prey should they come upon it. A human offering dead prey in captivity will involve at least dropping it in the enclosure, if not actively jiggling it to alert the scorpion that it's feeding time. Even headcrushed prey will continue to twitch for a while.

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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 2:36 am

The different hunting methods could be evidence that they enjoy catching prey (regardless of their preferred method). I actually saw my emp play with her food once. She got a cricket by the leg, right by her mouth... she could have easily eaten it, but instead she just held it for a few seconds then let it go.

Yeah that's possible too... but I was under the impression their perception was good enough to sense dead prey.
I'll look into that more... it's hard to fully understand how their sense work.
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 4:20 am

With regards to feeding, i've observed my Emps in the following ways:

Hungry mode - Very alert to movement of prey around her and actively grabs them with the chelas and devours it immediately.

Semi Hungry - Makes attempts to grab prey only if they jumps into her path but will not actively pursue her prey if she didn't manage to get a good grip in the first try

Not Hungry - totally ignorant of prey around her, even if it means having a cricket on top of her head.
During this mode, even when using tong feeding, say if you bring a cricket right to her chela or mouth area, she'll grab and deliver slight crush to prey but will throw/fling it away from her.

If she's able to get a grip on the prey before flinging it away, imo its a "natural instinct" for her to bring the food near to her mouth in preparation for the next step >> THE MUNCHING. But at any point of this time when she sense she is really full, she will let go of the prey and drop it there and then. Well.. who knows, she might be just practicing her prey-grabbing skills without having real intentions of consuming it Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 4:58 am

I have noticed from my C. gracilis that the 2i or maybe 3i will accept dead prey. However, when they molted to 3i or 4i and from that point onward, they would only take live prey. Perhaps it has something to do with the movement of the prey that stimulates their predatory instincts. They don't bother touching any of the dead prey and will let it rot, but when I throw in a skittering roach, it looks as if they "turn on" and actively hunt the roaches.
On a side note, I've also noticed that these bark scorpions love eating their prey while upside down on slanted or vertical hides. They will climb up the hides, eating upside down even though they could eat their food on the ground if they wanted. The prey item is sometimes almost as large as the scorpion itself as well. I guess that's what makes them bark scorpions; very cool to watch either way Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 12:43 pm

Penny wrote:
I thought this would make for interesting discussion.. as long as everyone is respectful of one another's opinions (so please do so).

Is it cruel?...

-to keep scorpions in captivity? (obviously most of us don't think it is but I ask anyway Razz)
Even though they often live longer lives in captivity, are they happier?

-to intentionally anger a scorpion? I notice some people like to "show off" scorpions by provoking them.

-to entice a fight between a scorpion and another animal? Does it matter whether or not they're both scorpions? (feeding excluded)

-to pick a scorpion up by the tail?

-to feed dead food to a scorpion, rather than providing them with live prey?

-to eat them? (bonus question) I know nearly everyone cringes at the idea of "pet" species being eaten, but people have pet fish, pigs, chicks, etc too.
I think I'm only more phased if the animal still looks as it did while alive... like if it wasn't chopped up... which is completely demented yet so much easier than facing the reality that we're eating things that have faces.


I'm increasingly sensitive towards scorpions after getting Jade (my emp).. I used to be indifferent (for the most part) about people eating them, fighting them, etc.. Or atleast as indifferent as I am about people eating cows. But if someone ate a scorpion in front of me now I think I'd flip out.

1: No it's not cruel to keep them in captivity (under the conditions). I don't believe the scorpion care, as long as the right conditions is met!

2: Yes, to anger a scorpion is the same as stressing it and will shorten it's life a LOT! Those people on youtube that poke their scorpions in the eyes or elsewear should just get shot (or poked with a big stick. Either is fine to me)!

3: Fighting for the sake of amusement to people is wrong period. But if the fight is between scorpions because of natural disputes in the enclosure (such as fights over hides, food, mates, etc.) shouldn't be stopped as this are normal behaviour of the scorpion.

4: To pick a scorpion up by the tail is fine and it won't hurt it but it will be stressed so only do it if nescessary!

5: Food, dead or alive, doesn't matter... Food is food!

6: And to all hipocrits: Why should it be wrong to eat scorpions, dogs, cats or any other pet, when it isn't wrong eating a cow, pig, etc? It's all protein :hulk: Bare in mind that the killing has to be done swift no matter what animal they are...
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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/2/2010, 12:58 pm

René wrote:
1: No it's not cruel to keep them in captivity (under the conditions). I don't believe the scorpion care, as long as the right conditions is met!

2: Yes, to anger a scorpion is the same as stressing it and will shorten it's life a LOT! Those people on youtube that poke their scorpions in the eyes or elsewear should just get shot (or poked with a big stick. Either is fine to me)!

3: Fighting for the sake of amusement to people is wrong period. But if the fight is between scorpions because of natural disputes in the enclosure (such as fights over hides, food, mates, etc.) shouldn't be stopped as this are normal behaviour of the scorpion.

4: To pick a scorpion up by the tail is fine and it won't hurt it but it will be stressed so only do it if nescessary!

5: Food, dead or alive, doesn't matter... Food is food!

6: And to all hipocrits: Why should it be wrong to eat scorpions, dogs, cats or any other pet, when it isn't wrong eating a cow, pig, etc? It's all protein :hulk: Bare in mind that the killing has to be done swift no matter what animal they are...

+1

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PostSubject: Re: Scorpion cruelty   12/4/2010, 4:23 pm

We diverged into discussions of food for humans, so if you want to talk about that, go here: http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com/community-discussion-f6/food-cruelty-discussion-split-from-scorp-cruelty-t5597.htm

Discussing what is cruel to scorpions, post in this thread.

Cheers!

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