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 Most lethal scorpions of them all?

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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/21/2010, 10:44 am

yeah but a scorpion killing a person has so many factors that it means next to nothing. im sure an emp could kill someone if the person were barely alive anyway.
and then there is an environment. i would much rather be stung by a Androctonus in a hospital bed than in the middle of nowhere with no chance of getting near a hospital for days.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/21/2010, 12:37 pm

_scorpio_ wrote:
yeah but a scorpion killing a person has so many factors that it means next to nothing. im sure an emp could kill someone if the person were barely alive anyway.
and then there is an environment. i would much rather be stung by a Androctonus in a hospital bed than in the middle of nowhere with no chance of getting near a hospital for days.

Definitely agreed with this. This thread could be taken in a few different directions certainly; LD value/# of Fatalities etc.

P. Transvaalicus I've read is one those that have a lower LD raiting than others in it's familiy but is equally as dangerous as some of the other big dogs due to it's ability to pump a lot of venom.

All that being said; I have a question if this can be answered in the context of this thread; I thinking I have read that scorps can control how much venom they can pump so does this make scorplings like baby snakes where they may potentially be more dangerous than adults because they uncontrollably pump more?? Has any study been done on the LD Value of the venom - is it the same value throughout the scorps life or does it increase with age?

Any other thoughts on my previous question with the Hottentotta sp. mentioned on Wikipedia making this top 10 list or was that source off?
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Penny
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/25/2010, 9:19 am

If our scorpions venom was made of Advil then it would kill my husband. Surprised

I think the potency of the venom isn't as relevent as the aggression. That's just my opinion.
Also, most studies on venom only focus its effect against humans.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/25/2010, 9:56 am

Penny wrote:
If our scorpions venom was made of Advil then it would kill my husband. Surprised

I think the potency of the venom isn't as relevent as the aggression. That's just my opinion.
Also, most studies on venom only focus its effect against humans.

Actually the LD50 tests are made on mice, I think!
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 1:06 am

most venom testing is done on mice or by protien counts in the venom and so on
and toxins that are proteins found in the venom its different with each species
also it can vary in the same species from different ranges like a LQ from african
and an LQ from israel (just an example) can have a difference in protiens in the venom

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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 12:48 pm

So those of you that are knowledgeable about the LD tests could explain how they break down? I was never quite clear on exactly how it worked. I was pretty sure they tested it on mice and there was some sort of breakdown on percentage of mice tagged by a specific scorp. If someone can give a clear break down of how this all works it would probably be helpful to others as well.

Thanks in advance Very Happy
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Penny
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:24 pm

Well of course no one tests on humans lol; they study the statistics. The tests on mice are usually for developing anti-venoms, aren't they? Though that does provide more understanding in relation to lethality.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:27 pm

Well Penny, we could probably combine our experiences and lend enough data for testing on humans Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:33 pm

Penny wrote:
Well of course no one tests on humans lol; they study the statistics. The tests on mice are usually for developing anti-venoms, aren't they? Though that does provide more understanding in relation to lethality.

No the tests on mice is indeed to find out how deadly the venom is! When they create anti-venom, the scorpion venom is injected into horses and then they tap their blood (if I got the info right?)
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:35 pm

haha, true... the curiousity of many owners.

I, however, have never been stung by anything and am not eager to experience it. Humans are the only species that's amusing while angry, imo... unless it's a baby. An angry baby always makes me giggle.

@Rene:
Oh, really? D: I got the impression the tests were justified. -_- That's cruel.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:48 pm

Rene, that is what I have read too.

And Penny it is not cruel at all. Horses have a lot of blood and it doesn't bother them at all. It is actually a very safe act as far as I understand. As for it being a concern of safety they wouldn't be practicing this on such an expensive animal if it was risky or harmful. And PETA would be all over it if it was inhumane.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:49 pm

I meant for the mice. >.<
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:51 pm

iitomodachi1 wrote:
Rene, that is what I have read too.

And Penny it is not cruel at all. Horses have a lot of blood and it doesn't bother them at all. It is actually a very safe act as far as I understand. As for it being a concern of safety they wouldn't be practicing this on such an expensive animal if it was risky or harmful. And PETA would be all over it if it was inhumane.

I think she is talking about the mice Wink

Penny wrote:
@Rene:
Oh, really? D: I got the impression the tests were justified. -_- That's cruel.

I think it is justified! To be able to make anti-venom, and know what animals to create anti-venom for, they must know what species are lethal and which isn't...
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 3:54 pm

But don't we already have enough information on lethality (to humans) based on statistics?
What's lethal to mice is often harmless to humans. It's not just the amount or potency of the venom; immunity plays a role too.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 4:08 pm

Well, I'm not a scientist, but I guess they have a way to transfer the data from mice to humans! I also guess that the potency of each scorpion has something to do with how the anti-venom is made, and the amount of venom used for it... Scientists isn't just torturing nazi doctors Wink and allthough their ways might seem cruel, it's allways for the benefit of some greater good or atleast have some sort of purpose that will benefit mankind...
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 4:21 pm

Sorry if you meant mice Penny.

Rene, I think another benefit to using horses is their cheer size. Not just for taking a lot blood without harming the horse but injecting venom into them, the venom would have a lot less of an effect on an animal that size. Just like a lot of the medically significant scorps aren't dangerous to full grown adult humans - painful yes - but not so life threatening. But the same species have a much more dangerous effect on children, elderly and the sick.
I was trying to ask the guy I'm still waiting for my P. Transvaalicus from if there was a way to purchase antivenom as well. If these scorps are being shipped in we should start ordering antivenom too. It would be good to keep on hand in the event of an emergency.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 4:25 pm

Why in the love of god would you want to buy something that expensive and if i recall right it got a small lifespan.. its ridiculurs to have lying around, you live in the US, Scorpion stings are common and they know how to treat them or get a hold of infomation about treating them, Injecting yourself with something you have no idea on how to use could proberly kill you instead of the venom from the scorpion..

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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 4:27 pm

Scientists do test some weird (and disturbing) things that are completely unnecessary.. not everyone deserves the privelages they have.

Maybe I'll look and see if there's an explanation for why it's necessary later... but it's not like I'm going to start protesting so I don't care enough to look right now lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 4:34 pm

Kejser wrote:
Why in the love of god would you want to buy something that expensive and if i recall right it got a small lifespan.. its ridiculurs to have lying around, you live in the US, Scorpion stings are common and they know how to treat them or get a hold of infomation about treating them, Injecting yourself with something you have no idea on how to use could proberly kill you instead of the venom from the scorpion..

I must say I agree, espicially in the US because of the access to antivenom in the hospitals! Just like the guns, it's false security Wink And a big guy like you won't really be hurt by a Parabuthus Transvaalicus sting (or any other sting from a scorpion)... Well it'll hurt, but it won't kill you!

BTW: Just janking your chain about the guns Very Happy

Penny wrote:
Scientists do test some weird (and disturbing) things that are completely unnecessary.. not everyone deserves the privelages they have.

Maybe I'll look and see if there's an explanation for why it's necessary later... but it's not like I'm going to start protesting so I don't care enough to look right now lol.

Yes, ofcourse some makes the studies, just for the purpose of studies, but that's not the case with the LD50! As I said before they must know what species to create anti-venom for...
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 4:55 pm

Kejser wrote:
Why in the love of god would you want to buy something that expensive and if i recall right it got a small lifespan.. its ridiculurs to have lying around, you live in the US, Scorpion stings are common and they know how to treat them or get a hold of infomation about treating them, Injecting yourself with something you have no idea on how to use could proberly kill you instead of the venom from the scorpion..

Well my inquiry is just that, lifespan and how to keep it. And as for certain species being kept in cases of sever scorpionism an anti venom is needed and won't be available in the states due to lack of species natively living here. Anti venom is not used in any sting cases unless there are signs of sever scorpionism and up to that point, yes you are correct hospitals here in the states even in the North will have access to treating and monitoring someone in this condition. But in the worse case scenario you are on your own as you will not have access to anti-venom. In the case of acquiring such a thing I would not condone or suggest injecting yourself with anything, ti would be something to talk with your doctor about. On a personal level I would make an off the record phone call to a doctor and get verbal instructions on how to administer anti venom properly, just the same giving myself my own flu shot every year, or setting my own bones when they get dislocated. (Sorry I came up surrounded in the medical field and have trained martial arts for too many years not to have a good understand of things of this nature. Between modern doctors and medicine in the family all of the teachers I have personal had were themselves or directly studied under teachers who not only were martial artists but the local herbalist and bone setters.)

And do you know how expensive it is? I'm not sure but knowing people in the medical field I have swapped 12 pks of Guiness for minor surgeries and medical supplies. My kit for dealing with inverts actually consists of scalpels, tongue depressors and the long cotton swabs which I highly recommend at least asking for a few of the swabs and tongue depressors to work with in addition to your tongs. Obviously you have to weigh your own pocket book to decide what is expensive or not.

All in all I'm not sure if you are flamin' this one or just coming off overly aggressive but in hope of the latter I'll leave my post the way it is without getting into the emphasis and manner your post is seemingly composed. Being hard to distinguish true intent on this I would suggest a bit more caution in how you word things. I know it is easy for every one to get carried away but just a friendly reminder. I would also assume that as an admin you should probably use a little more caution on top of the normal individual as you are more of a representation of this forum then the rest of us. Just my 2 cents. No disrespect intended but I do not tolerate disrespect either.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 5:01 pm

René wrote:
Kejser wrote:
Why in the love of god would you want to buy something that expensive and if i recall right it got a small lifespan.. its ridiculurs to have lying around, you live in the US, Scorpion stings are common and they know how to treat them or get a hold of infomation about treating them, Injecting yourself with something you have no idea on how to use could proberly kill you instead of the venom from the scorpion..

I must say I agree, espicially in the US because of the access to antivenom in the hospitals! Just like the guns, it's false security Wink And a big guy like you won't really be hurt by a Parabuthus Transvaalicus sting (or any other sting from a scorpion)... Well it'll hurt, but it won't kill you!

BTW: Just janking your chain about the guns Very Happy

Penny wrote:
Scientists do test some weird (and disturbing) things that are completely unnecessary.. not everyone deserves the privelages they have.

Maybe I'll look and see if there's an explanation for why it's necessary later... but it's not like I'm going to start protesting so I don't care enough to look right now lol.

Yes, ofcourse some makes the studies, just for the purpose of studies, but that's not the case with the LD50! As I said before they must know what species to create anti-venom for...

I'm not worried about myself I'm just overly cautious. I have a 4 year old who I will take every precaution for. I have vivariums set with pad locks and display cases I am picking up to place those vivariums in to be locked also. When I buy a house I will be a little more relaxed as my office will be sharing a locked room with my inverts it will also be set up so I will have a lab environment to care for my collection and also piece together my servers etc.

Also there are legalities should anything every escape that you have to consider with any species medically significant. You could be looking at a law suite for a dead dog let alone the kid next door discovers an escapee. Granted all of this is very far stretched but then again half of my life's experiences are that way as well, between getting a job offer out of a drunken joke to work in a winery in Napa, CA, to language misinterpretation leading to my teacher inviting me to live and train in Tokyo with him and the stories go on!
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 5:17 pm

iitomodachi1 wrote:
Kejser wrote:
Why in the love of god would you want to buy something that expensive and if i recall right it got a small lifespan.. its ridiculurs to have lying around, you live in the US, Scorpion stings are common and they know how to treat them or get a hold of infomation about treating them, Injecting yourself with something you have no idea on how to use could proberly kill you instead of the venom from the scorpion..

Well my inquiry is just that, lifespan and how to keep it. And as for certain species being kept in cases of sever scorpionism an anti venom is needed and won't be available in the states due to lack of species natively living here. Anti venom is not used in any sting cases unless there are signs of sever scorpionism and up to that point, yes you are correct hospitals here in the states even in the North will have access to treating and monitoring someone in this condition. But in the worse case scenario you are on your own as you will not have access to anti-venom. In the case of acquiring such a thing I would not condone or suggest injecting yourself with anything, ti would be something to talk with your doctor about. On a personal level I would make an off the record phone call to a doctor and get verbal instructions on how to administer anti venom properly, just the same giving myself my own flu shot every year, or setting my own bones when they get dislocated. (Sorry I came up surrounded in the medical field and have trained martial arts for too many years not to have a good understand of things of this nature. Between modern doctors and medicine in the family all of the teachers I have personal had were themselves or directly studied under teachers who not only were martial artists but the local herbalist and bone setters.)

And do you know how expensive it is? I'm not sure but knowing people in the medical field I have swapped 12 pks of Guiness for minor surgeries and medical supplies. My kit for dealing with inverts actually consists of scalpels, tongue depressors and the long cotton swabs which I highly recommend at least asking for a few of the swabs and tongue depressors to work with in addition to your tongs. Obviously you have to weigh your own pocket book to decide what is expensive or not.

All in all I'm not sure if you are flamin' this one or just coming off overly aggressive but in hope of the latter I'll leave my post the way it is without getting into the emphasis and manner your post is seemingly composed. Being hard to distinguish true intent on this I would suggest a bit more caution in how you word things. I know it is easy for every one to get carried away but just a friendly reminder. I would also assume that as an admin you should probably use a little more caution on top of the normal individual as you are more of a representation of this forum then the rest of us. Just my 2 cents. No disrespect intended but I do not tolerate disrespect either.

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way Neutral Just my opinion that it's false security, and isn't really neccesary when you are adult, healthy and fit (training martial arts and all)! Btw, what martial arts have you been practising? I my self has been doing muy thai and wing tsun and been thinking about starting at some brazilian jiu-jitsu to get my floor game right Viking
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 5:39 pm

René wrote:

Yes, ofcourse some makes the studies, just for the purpose of studies, but that's not the case with the LD50! As I said before they must know what species to create anti-venom for...

But they can know that based on reports of people getting stung.

I want to learn wing tsun but I'm not motivated enough to teach myself.. and of course there's no class anywhere near here.
I wish I could just defend myself with brute force... I swear, sometimes I despise being female. I do HIIT and lift but males gain significantly more muscle.. On average, a man who doesn't workout can bench press 130, yet a woman who doesn't workout can only bench press 60. -_-
Rant over.. I'll shut up now. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 5:40 pm

Penny wrote:
René wrote:

Yes, ofcourse some makes the studies, just for the purpose of studies, but that's not the case with the LD50! As I said before they must know what species to create anti-venom for...

But they can know that based on reports of people getting stung.

I want to learn wing tsun but I'm not motivated enough to teach myself.. and of course there's no class anywhere near here.
I wish I could just defend myself with brute force... I swear, sometimes I despise being female. I do HIIT and lift but males gain significantly more muscle.. On average, a man who doesn't workout can bench press 130, yet a woman who doesn't workout can only bench press 60. -_-
Rant over.. I'll shut up now. Razz

Pepper spray, no need to punch anyone.
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PostSubject: Re: Most lethal scorpions of them all?   11/26/2010, 5:51 pm

H. laoticus wrote:
Pepper spray, no need to punch anyone.

Well, I learned in the military that I'm pretty much immune to pepperspray and teargas so, won't hurt me Wink
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