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Venom
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PostSubject: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 8:53 am

Thoughts?
I never thought about it till I saw a topic on some post.
I thought people weren't gonna make a big deal but then it turned otu into a big arguement.
I didn't see anything wrong with it. Someone said that selling them would distort the bloodliine which I guess was the problem.
but if no one sells them and just keeps them for themselves then there si no problem. Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil
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Athlon2k2
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 10:28 am

The funny things is that people have done this with an assortment of animals. I don't see why scorpions would be any different. Maybe I need to do a little research first and talk to some of my brainy friends. Who cares if it distorts bloodlines. It is going to be fairly obvious if something is crossed.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 11:01 am

The only problem is 'purity' of the species you obtained.

Example: If you buy a show dog only to find out that it's been crossbred somwhere upline it would be annoying.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 11:20 am

I don't think it's a problem if you keep any hybrids yourself. I don't know about scorpions, but I've been around a few debates with tarantula hybrids to know it's a hot-button topic.

Tarantula keepers see it as polluting the captive gene pool if someone has hybrids and sells them back into the hobby without telling someone, and if that someone breeds it assuming it's one species when it really isn't, and so on and so forth.

A classic example is the Avicularia genus, which is so messed up because of the potential for hybrids to occur in nature -- some people are having a hard time nailing down an ID of their specimen, and it's likely due to natural hybridizations. Some people would be really irked if other hobbyists allowed this to happen with captive specimens.

Another argument people have made is that hobbyists should be promoting captive-breeding of all their tarantulas so as to help reduce the need for WC imports. If you're hybridizing instead of breeding "pure" lines, then you're just slowing it down. There's also the issue of "tainting" a female tarantula, with the theory being that it's possible for her to retain sperm from the hybrid mating even after laying a sac, so you'll never know for sure if future offspring are the desired species or not.

So . . . who knows how this would transfer over to scorpions?

[side note: useful hybrids such as mules aren't exactly the same thing, considering they're sterile and a common farm animal that doesn't really have "wild" populations of the parent species being imported; "entertaining" hybrids such as ligers seem to receive just as much flak as the tarantula hybrids]

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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 11:32 am

I think right now with all the selective breeding going on in the hobby, huge emps breeding, weird morphs, Chocolate B. jacksoni's ect. It's not uncommon to have people try and create hybrids there are some preety interesting things that can come about hybridization but keep in mind you don't want to pollute the gene pool. If cross-species scorps can not breed succesfully like most hybrids then there really shouldn't be a problem. But with all the taxanomy changes and whatnot (c. excisculp) then this is a pretty risky factor considering what we think might be one species really isn't and what we think are 2 different species are actually the same. As I said previously there could be some pretty cool things to come about hybrids such as Hottentota Genus mixing with another Hottentota and making a parthogenic hybrid that can keep on reproducing with no mate. Something I definatly want to get into.
-Eddy
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 11:55 am

From a scientific perspective hybrids are awesome. I just wouldn't let it go past one generation. You don't want to be the one responsible for diluting the entire scorpion gene pool right? I wouldn't mind a scorpion crossbreed in my collection. Since scorpions have so few babies I can't see it being a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 12:10 pm

Andrew273 wrote:
From a scientific perspective hybrids are awesome. I just wouldn't let it go past one generation. You don't want to be the one responsible for diluting the entire scorpion gene pool right? I wouldn't mind a scorpion crossbreed in my collection. Since scorpions have so few babies I can't see it being a problem.
Umm not exactly some scorps have VERY VERY LARGE broods.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 12:48 pm

~Abyss~ wrote:
Andrew273 wrote:
From a scientific perspective hybrids are awesome. I just wouldn't let it go past one generation. You don't want to be the one responsible for diluting the entire scorpion gene pool right? I wouldn't mind a scorpion crossbreed in my collection. Since scorpions have so few babies I can't see it being a problem.
Umm not exactly some scorps have VERY VERY LARGE broods.

Sorry I was talking in comparison to tarantulas. We all know the drama that ensues bringing up hybridization with tarantulas. Would it be easier to raise a brood of Heterometrus hybrids or Lasiodora hybrids by yourself?
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 2:26 pm

^ good point.

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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 2:37 pm

does this go on in scorpions? I thought the hybridization and debate was limited to tarantulas.

I say that if the animals want to/and can stupp, then let them stupp - it would be racist to say that it's wrong like: mexicans and asians can't mate because it's wrong....well, I have yet to see one human not be able to mate with another and have perfectly healthy spawns so where's the problem?

I will say that I'm not going to sit here and play mad scientist and try to cross L. mucronatus and C. exilisculp to get the new thing. and I'm not going to buy into morphs. now if it were a crossbreed that happened in nature and was proven, then I would buy it.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 2:38 pm

Well that interespcies relationships were talking about it would be more like a Mexican having sex with a chimp.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 2:47 pm

~Abyss~ wrote:
Well that interespcies relationships were talking about it would be more like a Mexican having sex with a chimp.

that's extraspecies breeding - not many animals are capable of that (donkeys and horses, and even that is up for debate)
scorpion A and scorpion B can theoretically breed just like the Pit Bull and the Pomeranian - neither of which I'd buy but I would be interested in seeing the pit/pom
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 2:49 pm

Well I don't think so because of the species differance. Remember Homo sapien sapien is the same species reguardles of race
-Eddy
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 3:01 pm

Homo is the genus, sapiens is the species and there's a trinomial. but who's to say that skull structure cannot be a playing factor in the decision of species - the human race has not been broken down into species because it could bring into play the race card even though "race" appears on any application and id. we're classified as primates, I still find that highly offensive because I don't believe humans came from monkeys just like dogs and horses are of no relation.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 3:53 pm

Oh well i'm an anthro major...so...yeah I'll just stay quiet and save the debate for a later time. Personally though race cannon be classified into different races. There are reasons for this but I don't have time to explain how we are all basicly "morphs" of the same species.
-Eddy
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 4:08 pm

A pit bull and a pomeranian are the same species, as Eddy was saying . . . the human / chimp analogy was a bit far off, as humans aren't in the same genus as chimps.

The pit bull / pomeranian analogy is more like crossing color morphs of one species of scorpion.

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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 4:27 pm

IHeartMantids wrote:
A pit bull and a pomeranian are the same species, as Eddy was saying . . . the human / chimp analogy was a bit far off, as humans aren't in the same genus as chimps.

The pit bull / pomeranian analogy is more like crossing color morphs of one species of scorpion.

better analogy: Canis simensis (Ethiopian wolf) x Canis aureus (Golden Jackal)

sure they're the same genus but different species and they can be bred. domesticated dogs C. lupus familiaris are generically a subspecies of wolves C. lupus <-- the question would be what made the pompom when it started as a wolf? Eddy's not an anthropologist and I'm no geneticist so I guess we both fold in those areas.

the human/chimp analogy is the same as saying P. imp x S. donensis - very far off indeed but there is no doubt that extragenus breeding is possible and it has been done with tarantulas and that's where the debate of crossbreeding came from.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 4:37 pm

No I was saying that some genus's can actually cross breed to make hybrids. Lygers, mules, wales(with I forgot what), ect. I said that some scorps might be able to cross breed given they are the same genus. But that offspring would be sterile. Unless current taxanomy is wrong which it in fact could be.
-Eddy
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 5:17 pm

I think Rasputin's last example was a pretty good one.

So, now that we've come to an agreement that same genus dif. species is possible, but likely sterile . . . what would you say if someone tried Centruroides gracilis x vittatus? Or Pandinus imperator x cavimanus?

Honestly, I'd probably say "that's cool, but don't give the offspring to anyone who either doesn't know what they are, or isn't responsible with their inverts."

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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 8:04 pm

I would still say no. Only because these are species commonly kept in the same enclosure for years now with no hybridization. I do still believe some other less known species are able to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 8:18 pm

Neanderthal and a human is more like it.
There might even be people with neanderthal blood in them since our specie lived amongst them.


Last edited by Venom on 4/12/2008, 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrids...   4/12/2008, 8:24 pm

That one is actually preety true. Homo neanderthalensis ( or Homo sapien neanderthalensis) walked the earth along side modern man, H. s. sapien.
-Eddy
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