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 ID please, Gertchi?

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josh_r
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Age : 36
Location : arizona
Registration date : 2008-02-15

PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   3/18/2008, 11:48 pm

Athlon2k2 wrote:
I only have only run into 2 out of the 15 I have caught in my back yard. Maybe I can start breeding them and you guys will have the hook up.

will be interesting to see if these breed true. you will have to keep us posted
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skinheaddave
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/11/2008, 7:29 am

Athlon2k2 wrote:
I only have only run into 2 out of the 15 I have caught in my back yard. Maybe I can start breeding them and you guys will have the hook up.

I'm surprised nobody has picked up on this yet. After claiming subspecific status -- even a sort of loosey goosey hobbyist subspecific status -- you run into huge problems when you hit the above statement. That the two colourations are sympatric (in the same place) puts serious doubt as to any restriction in gene flow between the two colourations. Unless you are in a very narrow sort of hybrid zone (which, based on your location and my own findings down there would be basically impossible), the observations presented here support the current status of C.sculpturatus not having subspecies -- at least not a gertschi subspecies.

All this being said, of course, they are still fantastically pretty specimens.

Cheers,
Dave
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Rasputin
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/11/2008, 8:50 pm

welcome to the board Dave
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skinheaddave
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/14/2008, 5:39 pm

Thanks. I've actually been lurking here for a bit off and on, but never bothered to post.

Cheers,
Dave
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~Abyss~
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/14/2008, 7:35 pm

The whole "gertschi " thing has confused me a tad bit. When C. sculp was C. exc wasn't it a subspecies? It's just a color morph isn't it?
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Rasputin
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/14/2008, 7:52 pm

~Abyss~ wrote:
The whole "gertschi " thing has confused me a tad bit. When C. sculp was C. exc wasn't it a subspecies? It's just a color morph isn't it?

to the best of my knowledge it's just a color morph
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skinheaddave
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/14/2008, 9:16 pm

Centruroides gertschi used to be considered a valid species. When it was synonymized with Centruroides sculpturatus it was not downgraded to a subspecies but was abolished entirely. In other words, it was thought that C.gertschi and C.sculpturatus were one and the same.

So yes it is just a term applied to specimens of a certain colouration/patterning. Even the term "colour morph" might be a bit misleading if there are intermediates between a "true" C.gertschi and a plain specimen. As to what constitutes a "true" gertschi morph, here is the original description of colouration for Centruroides gertschi. Remember that morphologically, it has been deemed the same as C.sculpturatus.



Cheers,
Dave
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Rasputin
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/14/2008, 9:51 pm

how is it I'm not able to find anything actually written by Herbert Stahnke?
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skinheaddave
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PostSubject: Re: ID please, Gertchi?   5/14/2008, 10:08 pm

Well, he only published until the very early 80s, which was well before journals were coming out in electronic format and is still older than many journals go back when they do digitize their holdings. He also published a lot in localized journals which are specific to Arizona or certain institutions. Conversely, his work isn't generally old enough or grand enough to be digitized towards the ends of history, such as the various old texts found on The Scorpion Files.

Cheers,
Dave
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