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 Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp

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Shinryuu
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PostSubject: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 6:02 pm

Ok, so I left the LPS manager a list of desirable species which should be a bit easier to look after than my emp. This means desert species or species that require less humidity than emps. The following were my choices, in no particular order.

There is just one specific requirement : I want a species that will be comfy in a medium kritter keeper.

So anyways, on with my picks...

Androctonus australis

Babycurus jacksoni

Hadrurus arizonensis

Leiurus quinquestriatus

Parabuthus transvaalicus

Centruroides sculpturatus

Now I know all those buthids are questionnable at most, but I definitely don't plan on handling or doing any transfers once its in the keeper. And I'll be making full use of my long tweezers for maintenance. The following vid gave a great method to use for cleaning a tank/keeper with a hot species.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hHuNAq4IV4

I,m already leaning more towards H. arizonensis, but I could get any of those buthds for cheap, which would do best in the enclosure mentionned above ?

Feel free to mention any concerns or reccomendations.

Of course, I'd only "enjoy" the buthids from a viewing point only. But what can I say... there is something that just draws me to those species and if I remain as cautious as I already am with my rosie and emp (I treat them both like hots even tho they're far from it!), I believe I can handle real hots too !
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 7:58 pm

I'd go with the desert hairy. I saw one for the first time IRL the other week at the pet store and I was amazed by the beauty of it! They look awesome on black sand. They're also pretty big!

Save the buthids for later Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 8:41 pm

i second that dessert hairys although not a dangerous sp. are a nice size and aggreive towards prey.


good luck with the choice
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 8:52 pm

bjaeger wrote:
I'd go with the desert hairy. I saw one for the first time IRL the other week at the pet store and I was amazed by the beauty of it! They look awesome on black sand. They're also pretty big!

Save the buthids for later Wink

Brandon, you seriously had never seen one in real life until last week, after all my ranting and raving last year about how perfect they were and you never got up close to one? My next question is something along the lines of, "have you been living in a cave?"

Shin, of all the species you listed, the only one I'm going to recommend is Hadrurus arizonensis. This is the catch, I don't know what your keeping your emp in but I wouldn't keep an emp, as big as they get, in a med kritter keeper - this also stands for Hadrurus arizonensis because they can reach lengths of 7" and live up to 25yrs. Now, if I were to suggest a hardy scorp that's awesome, readily available, and a good second scorp that can handle a kritter keeper, this is the list to give your guy (or you can ask and one of us can point you in the direction of someone with them in stock):

Hoffimanus/Vaejovis spinigerous
Centruroides vittatus
Centruroids hentzi


C. vittatus and C. hentzi are both truly communal species by nature that are small, but not too small. They aren't going to make you ill or kill you if you get stung (unless your allergic, in which case I recommend getting epi-pens and start eating honey on a regular basis); I'm thinking more for your health and well being but also calculating for good husbandry when I suggest a change to your list.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 9:29 pm

I thought as much that buthids should wait...

Thing is... I don't want a tiny scorpion that is communal. I only keep one animal per enclosure. So the barks are out of the list for now. Currently my emp is housed in a 5 gal tank by itself, the rosehair which was in the now empty medium keeper has a large kritter keeper now. I had mistakenly bought a medium keeper thinking it was the largest since they didn't have anything bigger at the time. I knew something was wrong since the hide and water dish took nearly all the space.

So now, while I could buy another large kritter keeper for H. arizonensis... I thought I could make use of the medium while it's empty.

Hoffimanus/Vaejovis... I'll have to look into those... as long as it doesn't need any extra humidity like the emp... I'd take anything.

Here's another one that has been popping up in my mind.... Smeringurus mesaensis... how about that one instead of H. arizonensis ?

I had considered a Hadogenes briefly... but I'd rather get a "stinger" this time around.

I'll do a bit of more research before contacting my guy... but yeah.... I guess it's best to lay off the buthids for a bit.

Thanks for those suggestions, Rasputin ! Greatly appreaciated =)
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 10:03 pm

I myself like the the Hottentotta sp. and i keep 2 Rhopalurus Junceus in seperate small critter keepers comfortably as well. Those would be the two I would go for, not too big but big enough and cool lookin.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 10:08 pm

Vaejovis spinigerous was reclassified last year as Hoffimanus spinigerous (not everyone has take to the new classification, myself included - so you can expect to find it almost everywhere as V. spinigerous or "striped devil tail"), it's the most common Vaejovid in the hobby and quite easy to maintain - but it is a little smaller than say, C. vittatus.

I've never worked with S. mesaensis but have always liked the species. I never got any because I tend look at them as a flightier H. arizonensis lite and they haven't captured my interest enough to dedicate myself to much more than a basic knowledge.

Don't be so quick to pass on the C. vittatus, it has both mesic and xeric forms. This is a species that has been found in some of the dryest and hottest climates of southern Texas as well as frozen in transit for 2mo (but alive) after hitching a ride on a fossil in northern Utah. Sure they're communal, Centruroides have that tendency. They aren't too small but aren't too big.

I watched that vid on youtube that you linked and I'll be the first here to say that that guy is a rank amateur.

So, at any rate, back on topic and such. Ahem. Okay, I think I'm good. So, this is where I do a show and tell (I've posted these here before for those of you active a yr and a half ago):

First image is of how I keep individual bark scorps (mind you, there was more of my substrate mix than initially intended and it was a little moist but I took care of that after the pic had already been taken - it was more to show the housing):


The next one kinda shows the way I kept my vitti colony (I don't know where all the rest of the pix of the entire enclosure went):


You want stingy...but safe?:
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 10:09 pm

Chrome wrote:
I myself like the the Hottentotta sp. and i keep 2 Rhopalurus Junceus in seperate small critter keepers comfortably as well. Those would be the two I would go for, not too big but big enough and cool lookin.

Thanks for the input that didn't help him choose a species but mentioned two other "hot" species.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 10:26 pm

Rasputin wrote:

Thanks for the input that didn't help him choose a species but mentioned two other "hot" species.

woooow way to be an for no reason, R.Junceus isn't considered a "hot" species since its venom is about 3/5, and some Hottentotta sp. arent as hot as others. Just giving two that would fit into a medium critter keeper that in my opinion are cool, since he also said he thinks he can handle keeping a hotter species.


Last edited by Mr. Mordax on 10/26/2009, 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Language)
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 10:35 pm

I've looked at the caresheet for C. vittatus on this site.... woah ! It's exactly the same conditions as my rosehair. Can live at room temp and one will be happy in the medium keeper. Now I'm sold on this species... and I get a buthid afterall =P

Just one thing remains.... how long do these generally live ?
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 10:49 pm

Chrome wrote:

woooow way to be an ass for no reason, R.Junceus isn't considered a "hot" species since its venom is about 3/5, and some Hottentotta sp. arent as hot as others. Just giving two that would fit into a medium critter keeper that in my opinion are cool, since he also said he thinks he can handle keeping a hotter species.

Well:
1) Nobody was being rude until you just decided to flame me. How long have you been on this site? how long have you been in the hobby? I don't know you and if I don't know you then chances are you haven't been around very long - I'm not going to say you don't know what you are doing but you should really know who your talking down to before you talk down to them - what you just did would be like me going up to Herbert L. Stahnke and trying to tell him that C. sculpturatus was completely harmless.
2) I don't hate nor apologize for having to break the news to you but a 3/5 is considered a medsig and a medsig is a hot - again, I go back to the Herbert L. Stahnke (God, rest his soul) comment and issue a homework assignment to find out what he did in 1969.

I was making it clear, based upon his second post where he mentions holding off on buthids that there are some that ARE ACTUALLY HARMLESS and quite desireable. And then you posted some buthids which are not harmless, no matter how awesome they look (I own and have owned many buthids, I wasn't born yesterday) - my remarks came from the fact that you clearly didn't read the first line of his second post.


Last edited by Rasputin on 10/26/2009, 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 10:52 pm

Shinryuu wrote:
I've looked at the caresheet for C. vittatus on this site.... woah ! It's exactly the same conditions as my rosehair. Can live at room temp and one will be happy in the medium keeper. Now I'm sold on this species... and I get a buthid afterall =P

Just one thing remains.... how long do these generally live ?

Males can life roughly 9yrs and females have been noted to live into their 20's
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/26/2009, 11:27 pm

Ok guys, cool it down.

As for the original question, of the options listed, I'd suggest H. arizonensis as well. Large, not too large for a medium KK in my opinion, plenty feisty with prey, and not dangerous to humans.

Ras, do you have a citation for that lifespan of C. vittatus? I've never heard of barks living more than a few years.

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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/27/2009, 3:15 pm

Rasputin wrote:
bjaeger wrote:
I'd go with the desert hairy. I saw one for the first time IRL the other week at the pet store and I was amazed by the beauty of it! They look awesome on black sand. They're also pretty big!

Save the buthids for later Wink

Brandon, you seriously had never seen one in real life until last week, after all my ranting and raving last year about how perfect they were and you never got up close to one? My next question is something along the lines of, "have you been living in a cave?"
Our pet stores aren't that great. I had to drive for an hour just to get to that pet store I was talking about. I'm surprised they actually had B. jacksoni, like a dozen Ts, and a pede there.

The only reasons I haven't seen them IRL are because of the pet stores not having them and me not ordering them lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/27/2009, 6:22 pm

bjaeger wrote:

Our pet stores aren't that great. I had to drive for an hour just to get to that pet store I was talking about. I'm surprised they actually had B. jacksoni, like a dozen Ts, and a pede there.

The only reasons I haven't seen them IRL are because of the pet stores not having them and me not ordering them lol.

You're missing out
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/28/2009, 2:09 pm

Oh man Chin Scratch

Well.... talked with the guy today... he called up his supplier(whom admittedly does not deal in latin names only common ones Evil or Very Mad ) and currently all they've got are Florida Barks (C. gracilis, right ?) , LQs and "some" species of Androctonus.... they have no clue which Rolling Eyes I should say it's surprising they didn't mess up with the Emp and sent an AFS by mistake Rolling Eyes

All are priced at 50$ CAD, which seems ridiculous since my Emp was 25$ (Even that is a bit expensive).

I could turn my back on the guy, but it would be very bad business to do so after he actually looked up what he could get. So regardless of species, I'll double tank and go in with tweezers only. So.... of those 3, which has the least chances of actually getting out of the kritter keeper provided I fill up about less than half the tank with substrate ?

And more importantly, of these 3 species, which has the longest lifespan ?

Guess I'll have to wait for H. arizonensis when it pops back onto the list next year.

Guh Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/28/2009, 2:39 pm

Shinryuu wrote:
Oh man Chin Scratch

Well.... talked with the guy today... he called up his supplier(whom admittedly does not deal in latin names only common ones Evil or Very Mad ) and currently all they've got are Florida Barks (C. gracilis, right ?) , LQs and "some" species of Androctonus.... they have no clue which Rolling Eyes I should say it's surprising they didn't mess up with the Emp and sent an AFS by mistake Rolling Eyes

All are priced at 50$ CAD, which seems ridiculous since my Emp was 25$ (Even that is a bit expensive).

I could turn my back on the guy, but it would be very bad business to do so after he actually looked up what he could get. So regardless of species, I'll double tank and go in with tweezers only. So.... of those 3, which has the least chances of actually getting out of the kritter keeper provided I fill up about less than half the tank with substrate ?

And more importantly, of these 3 species, which has the longest lifespan ?

Guess I'll have to wait for H. arizonensis when it pops back onto the list next year.

Guh Shocked

Um, good or bad, it doesn't matter - if someone tells me more than double what the rest of the world is charging for a P.imp I tell them where they can put that P.imp. Find another supplier.

C. gracilis has the longer lifespan, but they're all really close.

You're getting a pm in a minute.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/28/2009, 3:17 pm

Still.... part of me really wants that LQ... not because of its potency but rather for ease of care( by this, I mean not having to worry about the humidity like with the emp.) and seeing how I treat the rosie and emp with utmost respect... I doubt it would be any diffrent with an LQ. Granted I know it's not a species to be taken lightly and am well aware of the consequences of an accidental sting. Common sense should dictate that as long as I don't put my hand in the container, I shouldn't get stung.... unless it manages to escape somehow.

But if I can get something better and cheaper, I'm all ears.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/28/2009, 4:06 pm

1) There's nothing "better" about L. quinquestriatus, it doesn't really look interesting or do anything interesting; the only thing it has going for it is the LD50/50 rating of its venom and the last 2 metasomal segments - that's all that makes this scorpion the least bit intriguing to someone that's not in it for the science end of keeping the most venomous scorp.

2) Never assume it's easy to take care of a scorp because it's from an arid region; if anything, it's that much more complex. Think: it is a desert species, you get a juvie, how do you get it to molt if it's just sitting on sand because you've learned that it only needs an RH of 15% according to LKR, 2008? Or maybe you read all the sheets that say to keep it between 60-70% RH, how do you prevent a deadly case of mycosis in this process of juggling variable RH from variable "reliable" sources (LKR is the Lq king but still for the sake of this exhortation...we'll make him a variable and if anyone wants a copy of the paper he wrote last year, let me know)?

If anything, I hate P.imps but if given the choice between an Lq and a P.imp as a "pet," I'll go with the latter because it's easier to deal with, husbandry is more plug and play, I don't have to worry about what may happen if I get stung when handling it and, well, the damn things are more interesting. Lqs are about the most boring scorp in observation; I kid you not, the temptation to pick one up and hold it was there solely for the sake of something interesting possibly happening (no way, I never picked up anything past a 3 with bare hands. I'm fast and have a really good immune system but I would rather not chance it).

That is my food for thought...for now.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/28/2009, 9:20 pm

I want to thank you for these points, they are definitely valid. But I'll be honest here... either of the 3 have one trait I really want in a scorp : they always sting their prey unlike the emperor who simply crushes it a bit and chows down.

I may be in the wrong here, but hear me out.... here is my reasoning...

Bark scorps tend to be semi-arboreal or arboreal from what I've read, which makes me think they'd probably get the best chances of escape since they are adapted to climb, so it's out. The Fat Tail scorps tend to deliver a lot of venom in a sting, so that one is also out. This leaves the LQ, which I've read on various forums that is pretty easy to contain since it's a poor climber and doesn't always deliver a "wet" sting, some often choose to double cage it (I plan to do this) for extra precautions.

Something I noticed on prices not only here but various forums, they get pricier as they get older. So there is a very good chance I might get an adult LQ so I won't have to worry about molting issues. *crossing fingers*

I realize this is a very high step up in "difficulty", but since I definitely don't plan on handling it or transferring it once it's in the container, I honestly believe I can handle this as long as I stay alert at all times while dealing with it.

In all the 8 months I've had my rosea so far, I've never been bitten once. I've learned to read its body language and if I get a semi-threat pose when attempting to clean, I just shut the cover and leave her be to try at a later day. I doubt it would be so diffrent from a scorpion... if I see it open its pincers and trying to sting the tweezers, I'd guess that means it doesn't want to be bothered.

My cents on this... Feel free to disagree, but I'm set on the LQ with all that I've mentionned above.

I'll be sure to be extra careful from Day 1, and I should stay on top since I've not messed up with either of my other critters, so why now ?
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/28/2009, 10:09 pm

I get cb i2 Lqs for $10 us, that's about what $13 canadian? C. vittis of all ages for roughly $3 us. It's not because I'm in the divided states either, it's because I know people here and there - if I went through an importer I'd get screwed on the price too, it's all about working with breeders and collectors and I know there's more than a modicum of those in canada.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/28/2009, 10:31 pm

Rasputin wrote:
I get cb i2 Lqs for $10 us, that's about what $13 canadian? C. vittis of all ages for roughly $3 us. It's not because I'm in the divided states either, it's because I know people here and there - if I went through an importer I'd get screwed on the price too, it's all about working with breeders and collectors and I know there's more than a modicum of those in canada.

Captive-bred specimens is definitely a good thing. I'm guessing my emp was CB since it was a juvi and totally free of mites. A C. vittatus for 3$ is incredible ! I wonder if adult CB LQs are out there as well ? Say if I get a 2nd instar LQ, what would be the best method to make sure it has enough humidity to molt and not get mycosis at the same time ? That would be the only thing that's really puzzling me. But hey if you know someone in Canada that can get them even at this time of year, do pm me Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/29/2009, 7:34 am

Shinryuu wrote:
Still.... part of me really wants that LQ... not because of its potency but rather for ease of care( by this, I mean not having to worry about the humidity like with the emp.) and seeing how I treat the rosie and emp with utmost respect... I doubt it would be any diffrent with an LQ. Granted I know it's not a species to be taken lightly and am well aware of the consequences of an accidental sting. Common sense should dictate that as long as I don't put my hand in the container, I shouldn't get stung.... unless it manages to escape somehow.

But if I can get something better and cheaper, I'm all ears.
You can just as "easily" care for a desert hairy Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/29/2009, 9:28 pm

bjaeger wrote:
Shinryuu wrote:
Still.... part of me really wants that LQ... not because of its potency but rather for ease of care( by this, I mean not having to worry about the humidity like with the emp.) and seeing how I treat the rosie and emp with utmost respect... I doubt it would be any diffrent with an LQ. Granted I know it's not a species to be taken lightly and am well aware of the consequences of an accidental sting. Common sense should dictate that as long as I don't put my hand in the container, I shouldn't get stung.... unless it manages to escape somehow.

But if I can get something better and cheaper, I'm all ears.
You can just as "easily" care for a desert hairy Wink

If someone can point me to a seller located in canada that has desert hairies for sale, I'd obviously jump it... as long as the price is right Wink

Guess I'm gonna try my luck in the "For Sale" Sub-Forum and ask there.

Hopefully I can get something even at this time of year.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help making a choice for 2nd scorp   10/30/2009, 9:43 pm

Ok guys...

I've contacted Tarantula Canada earlier today to inquire about getting H.az. I don't know if they'll be able to track one down, but I wouldn't mind getting one.

And about the LQ.... why am I catching "flak" when this guy didn't ? I realize it didn't get much attention a few months ago, but still... makes me wonder Chin Scratch
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