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 Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes

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SeanCasey
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PostSubject: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 2:53 am

All,

I losted my H. spadix tonight.

The nematode issue that affected my wifes tarantulas apparently also affects scorpions. Read this thread for background information. The scorpion was from the same source as her T's. It probably took longer to manifest itself due to the dryness desert species are kept in. However, the last couple of feedings I noticed that the H. spadix was more thirsty than normal for a desert species (usually just ignores offered water, but was agressive at drinking it). The last feeding I noticed it took two days to finish eating a medium size dubia roach.

Tonight it was refusing food, but when offered water it immediately spent about 5 minutes drinking and just plunged into the water. After I removed the water I attempted to feed again. It grabbed the cricket I offered and seemed to have difficulty moving its tail to sting, although I did noticed a small droplet of venom on the tip of the stinger. It then started rubbing its mouth in the ground like it was trying to eat the dirt but that its chelicerae were not functioning correctly. After watching this for a minute or so the scorpion released the cricket.

I moved the scorpion into a clear deli cup to inspect. No signs of mycosis or any other damage. It took a couple minutes for the dirt to fall out of the mouth. Once this happened I noticed a bunch of nematodes moving forward to the front of the mouth. I monitored this for some time and noticed the amount coming out was significant. I noticed that the tail was quite limp and in attempting to provoke the scorpion into stinging that it was unable to move its tail.

At this point I made the decision to euthanise the poor girl. I have lost a couple of scorps before but never due to something like this, and the Hadrurus spadix is one of my favorite scorpions, so I am really bummed out right now.
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Bayss
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 3:52 am

Very sorry to hear about your losses...I hope you figure out where it is coming from Crying or Very sad
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SeanCasey
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 3:57 am

Well the only inverts affected came from the same dealer. It has not spread to anything else in our collection, and with my wife's T's a couple were affected seriously and soon enough after getting them that we know they were affected before they came into our posession.

I was hoping that my scorps were not going to be impacted. Luckily this is the only scorp that I have from this source.

Now I just have to find a trust worthy source to get another H. spadix from (or even a male/female pair).
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Kejser
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 6:40 am

Are you sure its the T nematodes that killed your scorp? did it have the same symtoms as the Ts?? and btw its possible to cure Ts of nematodes..

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SeanCasey
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 10:55 am

100% same symptions. Complete loss of chelicerae function, overwhemling thirst, inability to eat, lack of agressiveness, etc.

A very interesting thing noted in inverts affected by this nematode is that there is usually physical damage as well. On several of the T's the area around the fangs and mouth was phyiscally impacted. When wiping away the nematodes it revealed the whole area looked as if something had eaten away at the mouth. It is my understanding the nematode itself doesn't do it, but the bacteria released as waste product does the damage. In some cases it was serious enough that bleeding out was observed.

Attempted treatment has show near 0% success with a high risk of contaminating other specimines. The problem is that it seems by the time you see the symptoms of this particular type (what ever it may be) the infestation has progressed to the point no return (even if you clean out all of the nematodes the damage done will be fatal).

As as being the same? Another reason to suspect this is that all but one T from the dealer this scorp came from died from the same nematode issue. All of our T's and scorps from other sources have been totally healthy and unaffected. The nematodes seem to thrive on humidity and high temperatures (my invert room is usually 80-85). They multiply much faster when infesting a tropical species instead of a desert species.
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Mr. Mordax
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 11:48 am

Part of the research the lab I'm in does involves using a very similar species of nematode as a novel pest control -- as such, I see its effects up-close and in great detail. It does NOT look like a fun thing for an invert to go through.

I'm sorry for your loss. Perhaps you should post a dealer warning around the forums to let others know, or inform the dealer of your problem and see if they do anything about it (not thinking of refunds or exchanges or anything, but if they can try preventing this from reoccurring at their end).

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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 11:50 am

omg! that is awful. what a horrible thing to witness Sad
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Mr. Mordax
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 12:05 pm

I read your original post and tried looking up the article in question. As an OSU student, I have access to all sorts of stuff like that.

Unfortunately, the journal's website is making me say naughty words. The last publication they have is on page 692, and the one I'm looking for begins on page 695 -- the next issue begins on page 705.

Searching the tarantula keyword brings up NOTHING from their site, even though it's in the title of the article, AND THERE'S A PICTURE OF A TARANTULA'S MOUTH ON THAT ISSUE'S COVER!!! Bang Head

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SeanCasey
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 1:09 pm

Yeah that article is a joke to locate. In December we contacted the dealer and I know they initiated a clean up and inspection of their stock. From my understanding they lost a significant percentage of their stock because of this same issue. It is believed that this was caused by not providng a sufficient quarantine on new stock from importers and a possible vector for spread was phorid flies. After receiving of the specimines we had an outbreak of those flys that we were aggresive in combating. We spent several hundred dollars in substrate and enclosures to ensure that we eliminated any problem (and lost about $450 in inverts).

I saw some information about using nematodes for pest control. Interesting concept. I just have to wonder what potential there is for nematodes to spread outside of the population of pests it is intended to control?
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scorpion111
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 1:24 pm

Quote :
I saw some information about using nematodes for pest control. Interesting concept. I just have to wonder what potential there is for nematodes to spread outside of the population of pests it is intended to control?


yeah, I'd imagine that could be pretty dangerous, sounds like a stupid thing to do seeing as how easily these can spread.
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Kejser
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 2:28 pm

I had a mate that cured some of his Ts from a nematode attack.. pm me if your interrested i will translate what he wrote to english for you..

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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 2:52 pm

So sorry for your loss man! That really sucks!
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LadyRiotControl
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/8/2009, 5:28 pm

eeeew nasty. I'm glad to hear that you appear to have found the source anyway.
sorry for your loss, thats a horrible way to go!
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Mr. Mordax
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/9/2009, 12:23 pm

SeanCasey wrote:
I saw some information about using nematodes for pest control. Interesting concept. I just have to wonder what potential there is for nematodes to spread outside of the population of pests it is intended to control?

The lab I do this in (as well as typical commercial / home application) uses them as a ground application to get insect larvae living in soil. These nematodes are naturally present in soil worldwide, but they're populations aren't high enough to act as pest control. Applying a large amount provides a population spike that kills many (if not all) larvae living in the area.

The nematodes spread when the old host decays to the point of liquification and they travel looking for a new host. If they don't find one, they die, and the induced population spike drops back to normal levels.

It's fun when I'm checking moth larvae samples to see who was affected -- if I get a dead larvae, I squish it under a microscope and see if anyone swims out. Very Happy Kinda gross, actually. Puke

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SeanCasey
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/9/2009, 6:57 pm

Interesting. How long do the nematodes live without a host?
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PostSubject: Re: Hadrurus spadix - Killed by nematodes   1/9/2009, 9:59 pm

That I don't know -- but you can order them live through the mail.

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