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 DWA Poll and Debate

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Where do you stand on the Dangerous Wild Animals act of 1976?
It's great! They should keep it just as it is.
2%
 2% [ 3 ]
The included species are OK, but it shouldn't be such a pain to acquire a license.
21%
 21% [ 29 ]
Most of it's good, but they shouldn't list ALL Buthids on it -- just the handful of dangerous ones.
30%
 30% [ 42 ]
They should keep it to just a few animals that are worthy of concern, such as the big cats that started it or other large carnivores.
33%
 33% [ 46 ]
It's horrible! It should be repealed in its entirety!
7%
 7% [ 10 ]
Other?
6%
 6% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 138
 

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lycanlord
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/13/2008, 9:06 pm

you may be right, but i dont think its bad enough t need a warning, they show worse on the news lol
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/13/2008, 9:16 pm

qouted straight from the scorpion files:
"A clinical study from a region in Iran shows that H. lepturus is responsible for 12 % of the reported stings, but is responsible for 95 % of the mortalities (The other dangerous scorpion in the area is Androctonus crassicauda)"
now if you ask me thats worse than a B. jacksoni!!!
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/13/2008, 9:17 pm

I've seen similar necrotoxins scars from children in Durango. I really want to spend a year down there doing scorp research.
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/13/2008, 9:19 pm

May I come?
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/13/2008, 10:01 pm

i say remove it, just like the danish law about scorpions and stuff..

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/13/2008, 11:34 pm

LadyRiotControl wrote:
. . . scorpions can carry tetanus and . . .

. . . a sting from say... a spinifer in the wild could cause death in a person who hasn't had immunization.

You could get tetanus from a pet mouse biting you, too.


LadyRiotControl wrote:
And there are the unlucky people who may be allergic to a chemical element of the venom.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- I have not seen ONE conclusive case-study where someone had an allergic reaction to scorpion venom.

And if arachnid venom were prone to cause allergic reactions, you'd be at as much risk from the spider in a cobweb under your bookshelf as you would a scorpion.

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/14/2008, 1:09 am

Well Mike I gotta disagree on some of this. Allergic reactions are pretty bad it's what caused me to feel horrible pain from a C. sculpt sting that lasted a little over a week. And i'm a pretty big dude I can imagine what it would of felt like if someone else had been allergic and smaller. The first day I even vomited. Just saying don't underestimate allergies especially when a scorpion is more likely to sting a person than a cobweb spider is to bite.
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/14/2008, 2:53 am

Based on what I know about C. sculpturatus, that was just the venom you were feeling (I've read some nasty reports on those guys).

When venom leads to an allergic reaction, it's manifested as anaphylaxis (link). The onset of anaphylaxis is sudden, severe, and systemic.

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/14/2008, 3:06 am

Just so I have this straigh. Your argument is that scorpion venom allergies are a minor factor in deaths?
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/14/2008, 10:07 am

Guys you do know that some belive that there is no such thing as a first time allegic reaction ? its like with bee keepers that you get more senitive to the venom that will cause the allegic reaction..
since there have been no reports of a first timer stung that have caused a allegic reaction..

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/14/2008, 10:59 am

Mr. Mordax wrote:


LadyRiotControl wrote:
And there are the unlucky people who may be allergic to a chemical element of the venom.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- I have not seen ONE conclusive case-study where someone had an allergic reaction to scorpion venom.

I have urticaria and angioedemia... which means my immune system has never fully matured and my skin thinks nearly everything is bad that comes into contact with it. Therefore I am allergic, although so far minimal... to all kinds of stings. I have to take antihistamines every day because I am allergic to: cold temperatures / hormone changes / chemicals of any kind and excess pressure... all cause me to go into hospital.
So far with scorpions I just get a little more swelling than the average person does. But like I said I do take antihistamines so i dont swell up like a balloon Smile

So on this note... I have to disagree, although this is an extreme circumstance lol Smile
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/14/2008, 11:14 am

~Abyss~ wrote:
Just so I have this straight. Your argument is that scorpion venom allergies are a minor factor in deaths?

No, my argument is that until I see a solid case-study, I don't believe that scorpion venom can cause anaphylaxis. I do believe that some people will have a worse experience after being exposed to the venom, but I wouldn't classify those reactions as allergic. Nor would I classify those stings that result in death as allergic reactions, unless there is evidence that the patient was suffering symptoms of anaphylaxis, or in an extreme case, anaphylactic shock.

Lisa, in mentioning urticaria, you've reminded me that it is very possible to have a dermatological allergic reaction (very different from anaphylaxis) to a skin irritant such as urticating hairs -- I've seen the results firsthand from an entomologist who handled a pickled T. blondi and got a terrible rash on his hand.

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/14/2008, 12:05 pm

Right I see.

Ok not that I am doubting what you have said about scorpion stings... but just so i can know the difference... why would people have anaphylactic shock from an insect sting and not that of a scorpion. I only ask because my dad swells up like a hot air balloon and cant breathe. Rather like the good old peanut allergy. whenever he gets stung by a bee or a wasp etc. So I wondered why it would be different to being stung by a scorpion or indeed a bite from a spider / tarantula.
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 4:07 am

All im saying and was only really saying was. Some kid comes into a shop and sees a scorpion. One of the buthids and he/she thinks "wow, I gotta get me one of those"...oh..."thank you shop keep, I shall be on my way because there is no DWA*
*yes I know it was put in place because of big cats but today it applies to scorpions too*

Said kid goes home, doesnt know what he/she is doing and something goes WRONG

Or...said kid goes into shop..."hello shop keep, let me have one of those"..."oh no...I need a DWA but its EASY...sweet, see you next week"

I think the DWA is in place to people PROVE they can be responsible. If you really want one then GET one! pay the money, do the paperwork, have the inspection and PAY the bill yearly or whatever it is.

Thats all Im saying....

xxxxxxxxx
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 1:02 pm

@ Lisa,

That's true anaphylaxis there (not necessarily anaphylactic shock, but definitely anaphylaxis). Scorpion venom and bee venom are both mostly proteins, but scorpion venom has evolved as a prey capture method, and is primarily made up of proteins that interrupt nerve function (unlike the species mentioned earlier which is hemotoxic). Bee venom has evolved to protect the colony, so it would likely have a different mechanism of action, and it contains histamine, which is the major (if not only) cause in the allergic response.


@ Connie,

You do bring up a valid point, but in the case of kids, I feel the responsibility should rest on the parents' shoulders (as well as a shopkeeper who knows his stuff, such as the dealers that won't sell hots to minors). In the case of an adult who's just being careless and dumb, I believe they (the keeper) should be held responsible in the event of an accident. I just believe that people should be held accountable for their actions rather than have the government regulate everything (obviously that didn't work for the US economy, though . . . ).

The best analogy I can think of off the top of my head are knives -- a guy in a knife store won't sell to kids without a parent present, and any responsible parent will try to make sure their kids don't hurt themselves. If an adult buys some kind of knife and then does something stupid and hurts himself / others, then he's blamed as being the irresponsible one and must face the consequences himself.

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 1:22 pm

In this day and age there are not many responsible parents. Like today I saw a little girl, maybe about 4 in a womans outfit when I was shopping....Lets fast forward to that girl being 15 and wanting a scorpion. Parent could be with her, not care and ooh look...she's got something hot...I KNOW that isnt likely to happen but...rules be rules yadda yadda

Do many parents care what their children keep as long as it keeps them quiet?
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 1:28 pm

And a lot of people think scorpions can get their venom taken out and would probably assume anything sold has been devenomated.

Just think back to the many times people have asked you if they have venom.
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 1:28 pm

*Connie* wrote:
Do many parents care what their children keep as long as it keeps them quiet?

Mine did.

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 1:30 pm

Mr. Mordax wrote:
*Connie* wrote:
Do many parents care what their children keep as long as it keeps them quiet?

Mine did.
Mine didn't. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 1:34 pm

if they lowered the dwa price to 100 all over the uk which would be good do you really think a parent that doesnt care will be willing to pay out 100 plus the cost of the scorp, tank ect. instead of just buying an emp or a stick insect???
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 4:55 pm

I dont think parents should buy them for there kids, infact i think the person with the licence in there name has to be the keeper, and the only keeper at that.
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 5:33 pm

Aaah right now I understand Mike. Thanks for that it has been something I have wondered about for ages but never had the time to search for some sort of paper that explains it all.
I have been told by many a reptile shop that there can be an allergic reaction to scorpion sting. Now I know it's an old wives tale. Truly, thank you for clearing that one up for me.

Quote :
Do many parents care what their children keep as long as it keeps them quiet?

I do care a lot about what my kids keep. And my kids are lucky that they have been brought up in an environment whereby they are in close proximity to not only exotic pets but also farm animals, therefore, although in their basic understanding, they have developed a sense of understanding & respect for animals. My daughter has a 12" gibbiceps plec and a giant african land snail, and for a 6 year old she looks after them pretty well, but this is because she has been brought up in an environment where animals are part of our day to day life. But it is a shame that not every parent is like this.
I know a family not so far away from my house that buy exotic animals, have them about a month and get bored. all because daughter pestered her mum for a new pet. It is to be thankful that the DWA is in place or who knows what they would come home with!
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/15/2008, 7:52 pm

i dont think that the kid would even want a scorp. most would be scared of them. most of the people i know that have a sensible enough mind to buy something exotic and look after it properly have been brought up well and have learned to respect things. no parent, uncaring or not, would spend loads on a DWA just so there child can have a more dangerous and difficult to look after pet.
if you were an uncaring parent, would you pick the up to 2000 DWA + the expensive dangerous time consuming animal over the 3.99 cute little mouse that can live in a little cage in the corner??? seriously??
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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/16/2008, 3:14 am

^I think the point that Connie was making was that if it weren't in place, a parent could easily do that just to shut the kid up. But as you point out, most kids are indeed scared of critters such as scorps.

Lisa, I wouldn't call it an old-wives' tale so much as a simple lack of information. It's a logical assumption that it would be possible for any stinging critter to provoke an allergic reaction -- but since you're much less likely to encounter a scorpion in your day-to-day life, there aren't enough stings for people to realize that perhaps that's not the case.

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PostSubject: Re: DWA Poll and Debate   11/16/2008, 5:29 pm

anyone and even any animal can have an allergic reaction and die.
People are allergic to peanuts, even the smallest trace can kill them. So someone being allergic to scorpion venom sounds pretty likely to me. Its possible. Just not very likely to happen since most people DONT come into contact with scorpions *like those not keeping them*
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