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 Fungus or Injury?

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Casteaux
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PostSubject: Fungus or Injury?   9/12/2008, 3:54 pm

Hi Folks, I've recently aquired a couple of New Emps, after a couple of weeks one of them seemed to have developed what looks like a frozen shoulder!! a close inspection looks like there is some kind of debris in the joint where the chelae meets the arm and what looks like healthy, flexible tissue on the other side is looking dry and "injured" it still has movement but much more restrictive.. at first i thought ... light injury, but now the other has shown similar lack of movement, any ideas? is this treatable?


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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/12/2008, 4:56 pm

Hello hun, and welcome to the forum.

Have you noticed any fighting? Although this sp can live communally there can be a few fights for territory and pecking order.

I have noticed that when scorpion do fight one of the first places they go for is behind the pedipalps and straight for the weak points. Most scorpions are nocturnal so you may not have seen them fighting.
If there is substrate debris in the wound then thats not a bad thing, the substrate can act like a make shift 'plaster'! While the wound is healing. Especially if the substrate is new.

They may have caused each other stress so watch out for loss of appatite. But if they're still going about their way then i wouldn't worry too much. They're hardy little things!

I have never heard of an infection with these symptoms but anyone else on the forum correct me if im wrong.

One other thing... make sure there is nothing sharp they might have caught themselves on

LRC xx
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/12/2008, 5:23 pm

Many thanks for that.. I have seen a bit of rivalry.. interestingly one of the smaller ones is the more agressive and what i'm told are the Males just put up a momentary defence and turn away to ignore. the would-be agressive one is alegedly a female yet is smaller! the large one is a good 20cm but i was under the impression that the females were slightly larger! do you think i should just leave them to repair or try to intervene with some valseline or something? ha ha!
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/12/2008, 5:25 pm

I generally make sure that any sharp bark is smoothed over before introducing into the terrarium, I can only assume that in the wild they would injur themselves from time to time... and they repair like anything else.. or does this only occure when they molt?
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/12/2008, 5:47 pm

I would leave them to their own devices for now. it's the only way they will sort out who is going where. But if it starts getting too extreme seperate them. I had a female who took a dislike to a male and killed him in a matter of seconds.

Females are usually larger than the males. Possible that your female is an instar behind the male.

Knowing that there's a female in the tank might be making the male frisky. If she's not ready she will go for him.

In their enclosure have you allowed 1 square foot per scorpion? or close to that
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/12/2008, 6:39 pm

Do you have a picture? Maybe we can help you better with one.
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/13/2008, 11:07 am

I agree, pictures of them and of this injury would really help.

Most scorpions have little tiffs but if are both alive and have been together a while...dont worry too much.
As mentioned before if you see a real harsh battle going on then break them up...but as they are still alive and still together then try not to worry
xxxxxx
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Casteaux
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/13/2008, 5:26 pm

Many thanks for your interest and help, I'll get my camera out and see what i can come up with...

I have spent some time with them today, I have 5 in total, 1 small one which i think is a male, this one is segregated from the others due to it's size, there are 2 medium sized which i believe to be female and in which case are potentially one instar behind the 2 largest, identified as being males, these are all sharing a 36" x 15" terrarium however I'm awaiting the delivery of the new exo terra 90 x 45 x 60 cm to give them all a bit of room, i was then hoping to get a tarantula for the vacated tank, but it's possible i might have to split them out for a bit!!
I've closely observed some of the confrontations.. these all seem to be instigated by the 2 medium sized ones... and bearing in mind what LRC said, one of the medium sized possible females has an old broken left claw, however the 2 injured ones both have a now damaged right claw this possibly coinsiding with her good claw giving a right cross as it were!!

The would-be males are not coming over as getting frisky they are almost not interested at all, in the main they defend with a shielding block and then turn away! ok... there a a few of them out at the mo... i'll get the camera and see if they'll oblige with a pose or two lol. back in a bit
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/13/2008, 6:51 pm

Put each scorpion in turn into a clear container and take pictures from underneath. Nice clear pics will mean they can be sexed for you. At least then you would know who is who and of what sex
xxx
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/13/2008, 7:03 pm

well i've got 3 pics, just shooting through the glass, unfortunately not enough time to set it up properly... but thanks for the suggestion Connie... how do you get the image uploaded? i've tried to host and image and upload... but i still can't see it.. and the little image ikon doesn't seem to do much either....
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/13/2008, 8:14 pm

OK.... I seem to have managed to upload 3 pics but i don't see them here, Please feel free to advise if i'm doing something wrong... as i'm new to this site and haven't mastered it's attributes as yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 4:28 am

The host an image icon seems like its not working at the moment. You go to the host an image options. Put the pic you want and click upload. you will then get a code. I normally use the bottom one and copy and paste and then the little tree icon above you click that and then put the code in there and then "upload" and then it will work
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 1:52 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 1:57 pm



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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 2:03 pm

Ok... i have the hang of that!! we've had guests most of the weekend... so not much time ... will try to catch up with everyone during the week, Much appreciate your help,

Thanks for the advice getting the pics loaded up Connie, x

I'll try and get to the others for photos during the week, I hope they are clear enough for identification!
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 2:11 pm

looks like a touch of mycosis on one of the joints...and is that a hole through diesel's right chela?

and I think dozer and diesel are female!
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 4:16 pm

Hi Calum,

Thanks for that, I take it Mycosis is a type of fungus? if so do you know the remedy for this or is it a trip to the vet?

yes.... regarding diesel's chela, it's been there since we bought it.. we kinda felt sorry for the little thing... it was being trampled on by about 6 much larger emps i'm supprised they didn't eat it... we've kept it separate until it's large enough to joint the others.

Regarding the Mycosis, you don't think it's an injury? we do have a slightly agressive other emp which has had part of it's left chela nipped off some time ago... and all the scorps which have the "frozen chelae" have all been affected on the same side almost as if Digger.. the stroppy one, has slipped past their defence with the only chela which it can inflict an injury with, but i'll look into this Mycosis, thanks for your advice on both this and the sex of those on display,

Steve.
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 4:29 pm

Here's an in depth explanation of mycosis... click here

You cant get rid of it, if it is mycosis. I believe best way is to up the temperature a tad to keep it under control.
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 4:34 pm

If its a Pandinus and/or Heterometrus sp you can dry it out and it will still live thouge it.. its possible for them to dry up for a while and still survive just fine.. they are pretty hardcore..

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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 4:59 pm

Hmmmm.. :-( just had a look at the link from LRC Ta Muchness... if that is what it is.... then it's worrying!! but it mentions that death should follow 1-3 days after the black spot.... however he's or she's been like it for weeks now! might need to get to grips with dozer and maybe a trip to the vet!!

would it be better to segregate them... i take it the possibility of it being an injury has gone out the window and it's now more dire?

I usually keep the temp between 28c at the hot end and 25c at the cooler... what temp would you recommend, they seem to favour the cool end! i didn't want to stress them out!
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 5:01 pm

Make sure you have lots of air flow. You dont want to worry too much about humidity as that "feeds" it.
I dont know what temps would be best in this situation...
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 5:07 pm

Well if you have any sort of marco setting on your camera you should be able to zoom in to get a really good picture. But (and say if im wrong people) from what i have read of mycosis i have yet to read that the visible infection leaks fluid.

I would still put money on it being an injury to have soaked up that much substrate.

As for Mycosis mortality, that is worst case. But I know that scorpions can survive quite some time with the infection... remember that link is for mycosis in tarantula's.

Up the temperature just in case, usually a degree or 2 will do the job... whats the temps in the tank usually? ... or if you want to make sure... get the scorpion out , hold it down and clean the wound with a Q-tip... You will be able to see clearly what is under the muck and possibly take a better picture to post.

Dont worry pandinus / heterometrus are tough as old boots.
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 5:27 pm

Hi there LRC temp is usually between 28c-25c i've up-ed it just encase and i'll get her out and check with a q-tip as you suggested, I don't have a macro setting on the cam but i can possibly get a much larger clearer shot when she's out of the tank, I'll let you know my findings tomorrow,

Many thanks, ( i probably wont sleep a wink for worry)

night

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/14/2008, 10:16 pm

On mycosis:

Sometimes it can take a long time (days, weeks, etc.) to develop, and sometimes scorps can live a long time with mild mycosis and suffer no apparent ill effects. It's only when it gets very bad and / or widespread, or makes it into the booklungs, that it can become a problem.

Since mycosis is caused by high humidity (as far as most hobbyists know), the best bet is to keep things dry -- HOWEVER, since large forest scorpions require a humid environment, it is recommended to keep their environment at the proper humidity WITH a high level of ventilation to improve airflow. This is believed to help control infections.


On the injury:

I saw nothing to warrant concern in the photographs.


On sexing:

I believe your notes on the sex of your scorpions are correct (female, male, male). The first male may require a better shot to confirm this (the pectines seem small, suggesting female, but the genital operculum is shaped like one would expect in a male).

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PostSubject: Re: Fungus or Injury?   9/15/2008, 3:05 pm

I'll monitor Dozers condition closely, have now up'd the temp and the airflow, keeping a reasonable humidity too, for the time being it doesn't seem too stressed, despite a restricted chela, I managed to catch Vader having a wander last night so haulde him out for inspection, although he seems to be more sensitive with the guarded chela, there is no evidence of any visual injury or infection. as I get some better photos i'll post them for anyones inspection and oppinion.

Many years ago i had an emp which lived for about 8 years after i obtained it as an adult, not so much as a squeek of a problem the whole time.... so i thought a few months ago i'll get another... then another etc, back then you had one and it lived or died, now it's all getting technical, so I really do apreciate everyones opinion and advice even if it does sound a bit worring in places.. Plus it's nice to have made a few new friends in the crawly world.

catch you later.

Steve
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