The Web's Only Official All-Scorpion Forum!


 
HomePortalCalendarFAQSearchRegisterMemberlistUsergroupsLog in
ChatBox

Share | 
 

 Grosphus update

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
~Abyss~
Administrator
avatar

Number of posts : 6472
Age : 28
Location : Los Angeles Cali.
Registration date : 2008-02-05

PostSubject: Grosphus update   10/10/2013, 11:17 am

So I thought I had posted this yesterday and now I canít find my thread. Anyways I have some updated on my Grosphus species. A few weeks ago I found a spermataphore in my G.grandidieri enclosure. Sheís getting huge and eats about 5-6 large crickets a week. Getís along well with the male but god forbid the male tries to eat before female gets a chance because she will literally walk right up to him and overpower him for his food. I had to split them up for while so he could eat. My G.Ankaranaís FINALLLY MATURED!!!! Both the male and the female only days apart, up until yesterday they were refusing food though so I turned up the heat and heavily misted the enclosure and now they both ate so Iím going to move the male in with the female tomorrow. I miss you guys!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com
Den
Babycurus
avatar

Number of posts : 290
Age : 43
Registration date : 2011-10-27

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/10/2013, 1:24 pm

There you go, my own moulted to adult within a very short time of each other....The obviously have some distinct environmental parameters that they adhere to but what those parameters can be is still a puzzle to me although i'm leaning towards room/moderate temps, zero peer stress and low humidity....Read further to understand why.

I've created a small experiment where i have the largest amount of my young G. ankarana young under one set of conditions and a small group under another set of conditions.....a third group to test excessive humidity level isn't needed as i already know that those conditions WILL invoke mycosis.
So i have one large group (kept individually) being kept on dry substrate, minimal misting (once a fortnight) and moderate temps (23-26C). The other group (communal) receives slightly more food, has a higher temperature (26-30C) and are kept in an enclosure that has one corner constantly damp.
As of yet, only one of the communal group with slightly higher environmental parameters has moulted to 3i .. no incidence of cannibalism, and that one scorp moulted on the substrate at the other end of the enclosure from the damp corner.
Of the individual kept scorps 2 thirds (approx 20) have moulted to 3i. All moulted on the ground.

My next test (from 3i to 4i) will consist of several groups/individuals to find out which parameter/group of parameters (communal/individual, temp, humidity, food availability) are the deciding one's although as it stands now extra heat and or humidity doesn't seem to be decisive factor as that group hasn't advance near as quick as those that have had lower temp/humidity/food .. as counter intuitive as that may seem!....although saying that, that tally's well with the fact that my own 1.1 SA didn't moult until the enclosure was bone dry and the temps had fallen slightly....I'm seriously thinking that environmental conditions for this specie are not as hot and humid as many believe.

I'll write a complete report once i've got some of them to adult although right here and now i think i can say that they have a slow to moderate growth rate, moderate feeding habits (they don't eat and eat and then fast for months but eat moderately without gorging...probably why their growth rate is slightly slower than so many other scorpions of comparative size), they don't need rain forest temps or humidity and they seem tolerant of each other under communal conditions.

Having said all that though, that info could easily change by the time i've collated and analysed the end product info of a complete growth cyclus from 1i to adult.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
~Abyss~
Administrator
avatar

Number of posts : 6472
Age : 28
Location : Los Angeles Cali.
Registration date : 2008-02-05

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/10/2013, 1:53 pm

Thanks for that info Den, I agree with your findings I find they donít need to be kept humid but mines are offered Ĺ of an enclosure with moist peat but only about 1/3 remains humid at all times. They are big drinkers but seem to prefer drinking water drips from the side of the tank or on the bark instead of standing water. Iím interested what your results turn out I think youíll find that increased heat is actually a factor but only when given cooling periods and periods of ďheavy rainĒ and complete dryness.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com
Den
Babycurus
avatar

Number of posts : 290
Age : 43
Registration date : 2011-10-27

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/10/2013, 2:20 pm

We've all read that the ankarana massif where these guys come from recieves a half year of drought and a half year of rain although i'd be surprised if it really did rain for half a year without stopping. I think it means that during that half of the year the tendency is for greater rainfall and not constant rainfall and i also believe that G.ankarana has evolved to try and coincide most of it's growth development (moults) within the dry periods....there's probably also warm dry periods throughout the rainy season as well....This makes me think that as soon as we start misting, dampening corners and leaving water bowls we are actually signalling to the scorps that it's now the rainy season and they acknowledge by slowing down their development....This is why i feel it's important to keep misting down to an absolute minimum (just trying to recreate the odd morning dew) until they have reached adult or sub adult.....I'm also convinced that they, like so many other scorpions, get most of their moisture through the prey they catch......although your "thirsty" observation kinda goes against that thought...yeh, strange.

Yeh, i agree that increased warmth usually plays a part in growth rate but thats just what i haven't seen in my own young...quite the contary actually..although it may be that increased warmth in conjunction with another parameter (humidity or lack of for example) is the deciding factor..The group that i have at a higher temp also has a higher humidity and that combination doesn't seem to be as advantageous as less warmth and less humidity.....yeh, it's a bit of a puzzle at the moment but i'm sure the next set of tests will help conclude which factors are the correct ones!

I'll develop some flat line conditions (ie, 24C + 50%) and then adjust those with varying groups to key into the prime factors so that hopefully, by the time they reach 5i i'll have sussed optimal conditions enough to ensure that they all come under those conditions for the last part of their development.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
~Abyss~
Administrator
avatar

Number of posts : 6472
Age : 28
Location : Los Angeles Cali.
Registration date : 2008-02-05

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/10/2013, 2:51 pm

Your observations are incredible, but do not coincide exactly with mine. This might be a coincidence since I have donít have enough specimens to really observe but the younger ones seem to benefit from both heat and humidity. Only when I raised the heat and heavily misted did they molt. This might be that early instars have adapted to molt during humidity rises since they have shorter time frame between molts compared to the subadults. But yes both my Grosphus species drink heavily. Even after being fed, but like you pointed out they seem to like the morning dew they wonít really drink standing water. But when I do give them a drink I donít mist the whole enclosure I just spray the glass and theyíll drink right from that. I also notice that they have a tendency for climbing but have not yet witness and bark molts. The closes thing to it was the female when she matured had half her body (four legs) attached to the bark and the other 4 on the ground so a semi-bark molt looks like it was somewhat angled to use gravity assistance
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com
Den
Babycurus
avatar

Number of posts : 290
Age : 43
Registration date : 2011-10-27

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/10/2013, 7:10 pm

Yeh, i'm at a loss to explain those discrepancies to...Seems peculiar that i should experience a clear tendency for dry substrate, low humidity and only moderate temperatures while you are basically experiencing the opposite......i'd set up a group using your parameters but strangely enough, the communal group i now have measure up to those values anyway...the only difference being, they're being held communally......i should have started several groups from the start!

I don't want to stop the group tolerance study so i'll take a control group of individuals and let them carry on with the dry sb, low rh and mod temp regime and then split the remaining individuals into test groups to cover a few other variations......i'll get back with an update when i know a bit more.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
baphomet
Pandinus
avatar

Number of posts : 38
Age : 27
Location : Central, OH
Registration date : 2013-09-24

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/10/2013, 11:14 pm

Awesome work guys. Makes me kick my self in the butt for not taking better notes in my invert logs.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
~Abyss~
Administrator
avatar

Number of posts : 6472
Age : 28
Location : Los Angeles Cali.
Registration date : 2008-02-05

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/16/2013, 11:12 am

G.ankarana successfuly mated last night!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com
Den
Babycurus
avatar

Number of posts : 290
Age : 43
Registration date : 2011-10-27

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/16/2013, 3:05 pm

Hm, a winter birth then....my own was a ca 3Ĺ month gestation summer birth. Be interesting to see if there's much difference in duration.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
~Abyss~
Administrator
avatar

Number of posts : 6472
Age : 28
Location : Los Angeles Cali.
Registration date : 2008-02-05

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/16/2013, 3:20 pm

I'm internally debating with myself what the best thing to do is. These can handle lower temps (ca low is about 55-65 F during winter) right now the room temp is about 75F. I wanted to turn up the heat to speed up the process but part of me thinks keeping them at room tempterature will slow down metabolism and maybe....just maybe....allow more eggs to fertilize and have a bigger brood vs. a quicker brood. I'm not sure if the science is sound I wish I had more insight.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com
Den
Babycurus
avatar

Number of posts : 290
Age : 43
Registration date : 2011-10-27

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/16/2013, 3:37 pm

A reduced metabolism usually means reduced nutritional requirements = reduced food intake....and i think a brood size is dependant largely upon the amount of food a scorpion can eat. The proteins, fats and carbohydrates that make up those eggs have to come from somewhere and that somewhere is through the prey the mother can capture.
I think you'll find that if you allow the scorps to have a winter period the brood size will be small and it'll probably be longer coming about than what it would be if you kept the temps up.
I've just gone in and checked my own pairs temps/% and can see it's around 27C(80f)/63%...these temps are influenced by outdoor conditions and when my own gave birth (in the late summer) she'd had temps in the low 30's (86-91f) with night temps in the mid 20's (74-78f) for the most of her gestative period.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Den
Babycurus
avatar

Number of posts : 290
Age : 43
Registration date : 2011-10-27

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   10/31/2013, 3:56 pm

Ok...head hanging in shame i've got to say that my interpretation of the results of my 1st experiment were wrong...the results weren't wrong but the assumptions i drew from it were.......2 groups of scorps kept under different conditions...one group develops (albeit slowly) while the other doesn't. I reasoned the developing group was experiencing correct parameters (or at least in range) while the other groups environmental conditions were somehow out of range. I did'nt attach much significance to the fact that the undeveloped group was being kept communally.
Anyway....I had 9 scorps left that had yet to moult to 3i so i split them up into 3 groups of 3.

Group 1 .. †kept on dry substrate and at my scorp rooms ambient temps. A short mist on one side of their enclosure every 3rd day. Not to dampen the substrate but to just give them the chance of having something to drink. Measurements taken before misting.

Group 2 .. Their 3 containers are kept in a sealable larger enclosure where i can regulate the humidity by simply sliding the lid back and forth. Containers sit on slightly damp cocofiber. Supplementary heat via heatpad. Containers placed about 7 cm's from heatpad side. Substrate inside individual containers dry. Misting every third day. Measurements taken before misting.

Group 3 .. As group 2 only their containers stand closer to the heat pad wall and they have a supplementary piece of damp moss in their individual containers that is conservatively moistened when misted.

The 9 scorps were visually judged for size. The 3 largest and smallest were found and one of each put together so that the visible biomass of the 2 scorps combined appeared similar. The 3rd scorp was added to each group to even out and keep the mean biomass within the groups as close as possible......Temperatures taken with handheld IR thermometer, humidity taken with standard analogue meter.

As you can clearly see, over the just over 2 weeks i kept data (would have kept it going longer but i only wanted to solve a single problem..once solved i terminated the test and moved the remaining 3 scorps over to group 2's conditions) all the 2i's from groups 2 and 3 moulted within temp ranges of 28c-82f and 33c-91f with the scorps kept at higher temps moulting slightly quicker than those kept a few degrees lower. None of group 1 moulted during this period.
The humidity graph also shows a clear tendency for preferred humidity levels of between 65% and 75% with approx 70% appearing to be the goldilock zone.

One thing you have to remember though is that this is just a graph of data collected over 2 weeks, relating to 2i scorpions...Their environmental range must be much broader as i had 2 thirds of my 2i scorps moult to 3i under much dryer and cooler temps (very similar to group 1)....although i feel the above conditions for groups 2 and 3 and much better suited this specie....at least at this stage of their life.

I still feel though that if you can increase the humidity without resorting to dampening half the substrate then this is more beneficial to this species. They are mycosis prone and they'll only lay on damp substrate if they are dehydrated...Keeping them hydrated with prey, misting and/or water bowl and leaving the substrate dry dramatically reduces the risk of mycosis plus reduces the risk of mites or parasites.

Oh yeh....I now think the initial group of communal 2i's weren't moulting because of some kind of proximity pressure/stress/angst! (despite there being no aggression shown between them)..Their conditions were well in range, the only difference between them and group 2 or 3 is that they were kept communally.

Here's the graphs....The circles shows a moulted scorp, the number above shows the amount (just in case more than one moulted on any given day)



Back to top Go down
View user profile
robert44
Tityus


Number of posts : 535
Age : 57
Location : Houston, Texas, USA
Registration date : 2012-08-25

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   11/1/2013, 7:28 am

Fascinating data guys! I've tended to keep most of my scorps in a heated closet with 12 hours on/off of light. I've often thought that this is probably not ideal for a lot of species as you guys show.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
~Abyss~
Administrator
avatar

Number of posts : 6472
Age : 28
Location : Los Angeles Cali.
Registration date : 2008-02-05

PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   11/4/2013, 2:43 pm

Thanks for the data. This will come in handy
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://scorpionforum.darkbb.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Grosphus update   

Back to top Go down
 
Grosphus update
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Grosphus update
» Nomad Tanzania Wildebeest Migration Update
» PNW 10-1 update
» B.lateralis CB update
» Lady Liuwa Update

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
The Web's Only Official All-Scorpion Forum! :: The Scorpion's Lair :: Scorpions In General-
Jump to: